Jefferson Fisher: ‘You never, never win in an argument’

The Texan lawyer became a social media juggernaut by showing millions of followers how to navigate difficult conversations with difficult people. What makes him so good?

Wise words: lawyer, podcaster and social media influencer Jefferson Fisher

You’ve amassed eight million social media followers by providing practical advice on how to navigate difficult conversations. What qualifies you to do that? I’m a fifth-generation Texas lawyer; I grew up with law all around me, talking about trials, being in the courtroom, and watching my father. My Dad’s disposition is very diplomatic. He’s not a hothead by any means. A lot of the techniques I teach are because of the way he moulded me, and had me think about how I communicate.

What’s one of the biggest lessons you picked up from Dad? He’s the first to ask questions before ever giving answers. I should say, I also have an extremely kind mother. They both poured so much of themselves into me and prayed wonderful things over me in my life, it set me up for success in more ways than one.

How would you characterise your advice? What I teach begins by not trying to control another person. Society tries to teach us how to win every argument, how to hurt people with your words and have a great comeback or clap back and throw the zinger. What I teach is you first have to control yourself, because that’s the only thing you can control.

So … how do I win an argument? First, you’ve got to drop this idea of having to “win” the argument – you never, never win in an argument. What I teach is stand your ground, say what you need to say, be assertive – but at the same time, find a way to be a light.

The decision to start making Instagram and TikTok videos coincided with another major life event – leaving the law firm where you worked with your father, in order to start your own firm. Why did you want to leave? We worked for insurance companies, and that is a very demoralising process over time because they don’t see people like you do. They see them as files, and numbers and then statistics, and they don’t get to meet Mrs Jones who’s sitting across from you, and she could truly use the money. I found that I was trying to help plaintiffs more than I was the defendants. Dad had a hard time [with my decision], because he didn’t take it as me leaving the firm, he took it as me leaving him.

Now that you’ve parlayed the social media following into a book, has he come around? He thinks this whole thing is crazy. My parents find it hilarious when somebody they run into figures out that the guy who makes these videos while sitting in a GMC Yukon in the carpark at Walmart is their son.

One of your most popular videos deals with how to keep people from getting defensive – why do you think that one resonates? Because at the end of the day we just want to feel heard, acknowledged and understood. Defensiveness is the No. 1 obstacle to clear communication because it’s so natural to want to defend ourselves. It’s always funny to me that some of my most popular videos are about “how to handle that toxic person” – nobody wants to watch the video on how to be a better listener.

You talk about the power of taking a pause during tricky conversations. Why is silence so effective? A pause may be the absence of words but it’s not the absence of communication. When you pause, you’re the one who has all the control. You control the pace of the conversation, the emphasis of your words, and in settings where somebody is doing something mean, rude or disrespectful, it leaves them out on a limb, feeling foolish.

I hope you don’t mind me saying this but during my research I did think to myself, gee, he must be infuriating to be married to … (Laughs) Lord, no! My wife has the measure of me. Early in our relationship she’d say, “Don’t you cross-examine me!” She’s an lawyer too so she knows all the tips, knows me like the back of her hand. In our arguments, she’s so fast that before I can bumble out my words she’s figured out the whole conversation.

The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More (Penguin) by Jefferson Fisher is out now