John Barilaro inquiry as it happened: Former deputy premier’s chief of staff Siobhan Hamblin appears as investigation continues

Thanks for joining us on another day of hearings into former deputy premier John Barilaro’s controversial appointment to a plum New York trade role.

On the fifth day of the upper house inquiry we heard from the following witnesses:

Barilaro’s former chief of staff Siobhan Hamblin: Hamblin said Barilaro never raised a personal interest in the trade roles but first asked her about the appointment process, and whether it could be changed, in June last year. She also said she urged the former deputy premier not to resign amid the COVID crisis last October, but he proceeded to step down days after then-Premier Gladys Berejiklian. She could not explain why he was seeking an urgent cabinet minute around changing the trade appointments.

Investment NSW managing director Kylie Bell: Bell told Barilaro he got the job via text on May 23. She felt the recruitment firm held “a bit of unconscious bias” against him in the recruitment process and said he would have been able to “get things happening” in New York. While Bell received a glowing reference for the other candidate, Kimberley Cole, she said Cole did not have enough experience in the US market or in NSW and was not best-suited for the New York role.

Public Service Commissioner Kathrina Lo: Lo said both herself and independent panel member Warwick Smith would not have endorsed the final panel selection report that endorsed John Barilaro if they knew the information they knew now. Lo said she was concerned by “the degree of ministerial involvement, including input into shortlisting and provision of an informal reference” as well as the treatment of the third-ranked candidate. She said she felt she may have been used as political cover by the hiring firm or department secretary Amy Brown.

I’m Natassia Chrysanthos signing off the blog - we will be back here on Monday morning to bring you live updates when the inquiry resumes.

Barilaro is set to give evidence from 10am and will make his first extensive public comments on the saga.

In the meantime, you can read Lucy Cormack’s summary of today’s events.

Have a lovely weekend.

In the final slot of questioning for the day, public service commissioner Kathrina Lo has told the inquiry it’s “hard to comment” on whether John Barilaro was appointed to the $500,000-a-year New York trade posting on merit.

However, she agreed he was a capable candidate.

Government MP Wes Fang put these questions about Barilaro’s candidacy to her just before the inquiry wrapped up for the day.

Government: Do you believe that John Barilaro earned that role on merit?

Lo: That is very hard for me to comment on now because I now am aware of things I wasn’t aware of at the time. And I think if I was aware of those things at the time, there may have been a different conversation among the panel members. That’s just the position I’m in now.

Government: I understand that. Do you believe Mr Barilaro, if he was to have taken up the role, do you believe he would have been a successful person to conduct himself in that role?

Lo: Based on what I had seen to date, by the time I was asked to sign the report, I would say yes. My concern is more around the process.

Government: So it’s not that you don’t believe Mr. Barilaro was capable of the role. You have concerns around what, I guess, has been an imperfect recruitment process?

Lo: That’s right.

And that concludes the fifth day of hearings. You can watch Lo’s evidence below.

The state’s public service commissioner Kathrina Lo has told the inquiry she was concerned she may have been used as political cover in the recruitment process.

In her opening statement, she said: “As Public Service Commissioner, I should not be viewed as cover for a recruitment process or as a way for other panel members or the hiring agency to avoid accountability.”

Labor: What do you mean by that?

Lo: I’m a participant on the panel. I don’t have elevated status compared to any other panel member because of my job title. My view does not carry more weight.

Labor: You’re not a green light?

Lo: I’m not a green light. Everybody needs to fulfil their individual and respective responsibilities.

Labor: Do you feel like you have been used as cover?

Lo: Possibly.

Labor: Who do you think has used you as cover for the recruitment process?

Lo: Possibly the hiring agency.

Public Sector Commissioner Kathrina Lo gives evidence.Credit: Kate Geraghty

Labor: How did you find yourself on this panel?

Lo: I received a phone call from the secretary [of the department of trade Amy Brown] and she said that the secretary for the Department of Premier and Cabinet had suggested that I be on the panel.

Labor: So why do you think you may have been used as cover by the recruitment agency when presumably they were told you are the person to be on the panel?

Lo: That is based on evidence I’ve heard in this inquiry... references to the public service commissioner being on the panel.

Labor: That was being made by the secretary. Do you think perhaps it’s the case the secretary has been using you as cover?

Lo: I don’t know.

Labor: Is that what led you to that feeling?

Lo: I was concerned.

Towards the end of the hearing, government MP Wes Fang put a different spin on the matter.

Government: You said the secretary perhaps use your position as cover. Is it possible also that perhaps the secretary highlighted the fact that you were on the panel because, as you rightly said, you’re well respected on both sides? Is that possible?

Lo: It’s possible.

Kathrina Lo has agreed with Investment NSW bureaucrats that the assessment in the first draft selection panel report - which placed Kimberley Cole above John Barilaro - was not accurate.

But she has identified issues around the treatment of a third-ranked candidate and the use of informal references.

“Now that I’ve had the opportunity to have a very brief look at that first draft, it was not accurate in terms of ratings and rankings,” Lo said.

“I think at the conclusion of our deliberations, we thought that we’re not going to try and rank them at that point in time, that we will just ask [the recruitment firm] to get references for the top two candidates.”

She said it was not uncommon for the hiring panel chair - in this case Amy Brown - to go back to a recruitment firm and seek to have an assessment corrected.

Public Sector Commissioner Kathrina Lo.Credit: Kate Geraghty

But she said she had not “eyeballed” the third-ranked candidate because she did not sit on an earlier panel that he was on.

Warwick Smith, the other independent panel member, did meet the third-ranked candidate on an earlier panel. “[Smith] had an expectation that there would be further discussion about that third ranked panel member,” she said.

“I don’t think he thinks that there was sufficient discussion.”

The final version of the report which Lo was asked to sign may have also included reference checks that she was not aware of.

“I don’t know the answer to whether informal referee checks were factored into the report,” she said.

“It becomes an issue if the feedback through the informal referees was factored into the report that was presented to the rest of the panel members, and those panel members weren’t told about it.

“I think that there was an issue around disclosure here.”

Public Service Commissioner Kathrina Lo, who was on the selection panel that appointed John Barilaro, says she did not know that an early draft panel report was changed to downgrade Kimberley Cole’s assessment and enhance Barilaro’s.

“That is what I only recently learned,” Lo has told the inquiry.

She also told the inquiry she had serious concerns about the treatment of the third-ranked candidate, who had already been interviewed in an earlier recruitment round. The original interview assessment for that candidate was substantially downgraded, unbeknownst to Lo.

“I had trusted that the first assessment would be carried over, and with the benefit of hindsight, I should have asked to see the first panel’s report. I deeply regret not doing so and I’ve learned a hard lesson.”

Public Sector Commissioner Kathrina Lo (centre) gives evidence.Credit: Kate Geraghty

Lo was sent a final version of the panel report on June 15 and was asked to sign off on it by the end of the day.

That version said Barilaro was the first-ranked candidate, and it was sent to Lo and the other independent panel member, Warwick Smith, several days after Barilaro had already signed a contract on June 9.

“I wasn’t aware that an offer had been made when I received this and I wasn’t aware that Mr Barilaro [had signed a] contract,” Lo said.

“I wasn’t aware of any of those conversations between the department and Mr Barilaro.

“Having said that, an independent panel member would not be involved in ... contracts and things.”

Public service commissioner Kathrina Lo says she would not have signed off on John Barilaro’s appointment if she knew the evidence she knows now, including that then-Minister Stuart Ayres gave input into the shortlisting process.

In her opening remarks to the inquiry, Lo said she was not aware the process had included a degree of ministerial involvement, “including input into shortlisting and provision of an informal reference”.

If she knew that, Lo said neither she or the other independent panel member, Warwick Smith, would have signed off on the panel selection report that preferenced John Barilaro on June 15.

This was her statement:

I’m a long serving public servant, who has worked with both Coalition and Labor governments.

I’ve always remained apolitical, acted without fear or favour as Public Service Commissioner. I’m an independent statutory officer, and I take that independence very seriously.

While I report to the premier, I’m not subject to the control and direction of the premier, or indeed any other minister.

It’s common for me to be involved in recruitment for senior roles in the sector. From time to time, former politicians, including former ministers, apply for roles in the sector. There’s nothing to preclude them from doing so. Under the ministerial code of conduct, if they do so, they must abide by the process and be treated impartially.

I can state unequivocally that I approached the task of merit assessment with impartiality and objectivity. No pressure was placed on me personally, to achieve a particular outcome. If it had been, I certainly would have resisted it.

In undertaking a merit assessment, it’s not appropriate for a panel to take into account whether the appointment of a particular candidate would potentially be controversial, or unpopular. These are not relevant considerations in a merit assessment.

Instead a panel must focus on whether the qualifications, skills, and experience of the candidate means they have the capabilities to do the job.

I have recently become aware, including through evidence given at hearings of this inquiry and through media reports, of various matters relating to this recruitment process.

This includes the degree of ministerial involvement, including input into shortlisting and provision of an informal reference. I was not aware that informal references were sought for any candidate, nor was I aware that the minister met with Ms Kimberley Cole.

I’ve also recently become aware that the treatment of the third-ranked candidate in the report did not accord with what I believed would occur.

Had I known on 15 June, what I know now, I would not have endorsed the report.

The other independent panel member, the Honourable Warwick Smith AO, who has not been called as a witness before this inquiry, would like me to put on the record that had he known then what he knows now, he also would not have endorsed the report.

In particular, he did not know the minister met with Ms Cole, and he’s concerned about the treatment of the third-ranked candidate.

As Public Service Commissioner, I should not be viewed as cover for a recruitment process, or as a way for other panel members, or the hiring agency, to avoid accountability.

We’re approaching an afternoon tea break. Investment NSW Kylie Bell has ended her session under questioning by explaining why she thought Barilaro was best-placed for the job.

Here’s what she said:

I participated in the panel, one of four of us. He clearly demonstrated in the interview that he knows the state, probably, like, very few people.

He knows the businesses, he knows the industry groups. If he was in New York for us, he would be able to pick up the phone and talk to business leaders, and get things happening.

I came to the conclusion that he was the best person for the job from the candidates.

The hearing will resume at 4.15pm and hear from public service commissioner Kathrina Lo, who was also on the hiring panel.

Investment NSW managing director Kylie Bell has told an inquiry that the first version of a selection panel report for the New York trade role ranked a female candidate highest to “help fulfil our mandate of looking at someone from a diverse background”.

Documents have previously shown that Investment NSW wanted to appoint a woman to the Americas trade role because many of the other appointments had been men.

“There had been a preference to try and find a successful female candidate,” Bell said.

She speculated that was the reason that the recruitment firm ranked global executive Kimberley Cole as the first choice of the selection panel, ahead of Barilaro.

Investment NSW managing director Kylie Bell.Credit: Kate Geraghty

“There was clear and robust discussion in that meeting that she was an excellent candidate, no doubt... I suspect [the recruitment manager] was trying to help us fulfil our mandate of looking at someone from a diverse background.”

But Bell said someone “should not be employed because they’re a female if they are not the best person for the job”.

“The reason she was not selected was not because she would not do great in one of these roles. The question became whether she was going to be great in this particular role. Most of her expertise was in Asia,” Bell said.

“The report was updated to reflect simply that she would be a very strong candidate in the future. She was not right for this particular role.

“We weren’t just looking for someone that was a good leader or, you know, had done good in business. We were actually looking for someone that could sell NSW to the US and could walk into a room with a business leader and talk about what is happening in this state.

“That, for me, was critical, and she didn’t have it.”

Investment NSW managing director Kylie Bell has told the inquiry she felt the recruitment firm held “a bit of unconscious bias” against John Barilaro during the hiring process.

She said the hiring panel agreed after the interviews on March 15 they “very clearly” had two top candidates: global executive Kimberley Cole and former deputy premier John Barilaro.

She said the next step was to conduct reference checks and differentiate the candidates.

But the recruitment firm sent a panel report back before that, on March 25, that elevated Cole above Barilaro.

Bell has agreed with Investment NSW Amy Brown and said that first report was not fair to Barilaro. “I feel like there was a bit of unconscious bias... I’m dismissing the conclusion that they drew in this report,” she said.

How the report changed

March 25 report: He had not worked internationally in a role aligned to the experience expected for high level [Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner] candidates

June 15 report: While he has not lived internationally, he has successfully developed international businesses in both his roles

March 25 report: His lack of business development networks would mean that he would have a considerable learning curve in the role

June 15 report: While he would have a learning curve on doing business in the US, he had a strong track record of building teams as well as operating in a dynamic environment and had deep understanding of the NSW Trade and Investment environment

Bell said the first report which selected Cole as the preferred candidate and put Barilaro second was “completely not factual”.

“Ms Cole was a successful businesswoman [and] had done fantastic, fantastic work,” she said.

But she said the job had two criteria. “We’re looking for someone that knew the state, someone that knew the market. She did not necessarily meet both of those criteria. And so we went to reference checks to see if we could sort of work through that further,” Bell said.

Asked whether Barilaro had the requisite international experience or worked offshore, Bell said: “No, he has not worked offshore... According to his interview, and according to the survey, he managed to lead a company, a small business, that he took overseas as an exporting business.”

Investment NSW managing director Kylie Bell said she did an informal referee check for global executive Kimberley Cole and received a “glowing” reference.

Cole was the top-ranked candidate in the first version of the panel report for the New York role, dated March 25. John Barilaro did not attract the highest interview score among final candidates and was suggested for the “talent pool” rather than the coveted position.

But the final report detailing Barilaro’s suitability was substantially changed on June 15 to bolster his credentials – after he had already signed a contract on June 9 - and downgrade Cole’s.

Former deputy premier John Barilaro and Kimberley Cole were both shortlisted candidates.Credit: Dominic Lorrimer/Supplied

Investment NSW boss Amy Brown on Wednesday said that March 25 report was provided in error and was not accurate. Brown said Cole did not show she was confident speaking with government ministers, and that was why she decided Cole was not suitable. At that point, Brown said Barilaro became the frontrunner.

But Bell has just provided a different explanation for why Cole did not finish up as the preferred candidate.

Bell said she received a “glowing” reference for Cole when she made calls.

“The assessment wasn’t whether she was capable of doing the job. The question became whether she had any experience that was relevant to the US,” Bell said.

“She was recognised as being a strong businesswoman in Hong Kong, in Asia.

“I think it’s important to understand the context of the role. Because someone is a fantastic business person in Hong Kong or China does not mean they’re going to succeed in the New York.”

She said the panel was “torn” between Barilaro and Cole.