Sue Neill-Fraser appeal: Final witness quizzed over dealings with underworld figures
The final day in Sue Neil-Fraser’s appeal hearing makes fascinating reading. REPLAY THE DAY IN COURT
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FORMER Victorian detective turned true crime writer, Colin McLaren, who started researching the Neill-Fraser case in 2016 has told a court a homeless girl whose DNA was found on the yacht where Neill-Fraser’s partner was killed was a crucial witness with evidence that could result in the convicted killer being pardoned.
Re-read our live coverage below:
UPDATE, 3.45pm: Director of Public Prosecutions Daryl Coates SC says it was “bizarre” that if Ms Vass had admitted to Mr McLaren she saw a fight on the Four Winds on the night Mr Chappell disappeared and naming those involved, that it would not have appeared in her statement.
He said there was also no reliable evidence that Ms Vass had admitted being on the Four Winds.
“Every piece of objective evidence that is before you is that she didn’t make that statement,” he said.
“She says she hasn’t said it to anybody, she says she only signed it under duress, threats, which is supported by the videos.”
And he said Mr McLaren’s testimony about the process of making changes to Ms Vass’ statement was contradicted by other evidence.
“The objective evidence is completely inconsistent with his account,” he said.
And Mr Coates said Mr McLaren had been dishonest in other evidence.
“Clearly he’s lied about payments to witnesses. It is ridiculous to accept that he just forgot about the $750.
“Clearly he’s on tape saying ‘Oh gee, you know how well that $750 worked, we’ve got to give them another $1500 in case there’s a retrial’.
“It’s not reasonable to suggest he didn’t lie in respect of those matters.”
Justice Brett has reserved his decision until a date to be fixed.
The case has adjourned.
UPDATE, 3:25pm: The Crown and defence will make short submissions on Mr McLaren’s evidence.
Counsel for Neill-Fraser, Tom Percy, QC, commended the witness’ evidence and said it deserved credit.
“We’d ask your honour to accept … that he is a person of good character and exemplary background who is experienced in police investigations and dealing with witnesses,” he said.
“There is no reason as to why he should not believed as to the essential elements of his testimony.”
He said that the omission from Ms Vass’ statement about a fight about the Four Winds and the names of those involved had been “an oversight”.
Mr Percy said that if the evidence of Mr McLaren was accepted, it would amount to something that may have had the ability to influence a jury deciding Neill-Fraser’s guilt or innocence.
He said evidence of an admission from Ms Vass that she was on the yacht Four Winds on the night Mr Chapell died – coupled with the presence of her DNA at the crime scene – amounted to fresh and compelling evidence.
UPDATE, 3pm: Mr McLaren denied pressuring Ms Vass to make a statement exonerating Neill-Fraser.
“I think the thrust of all the cross-examination was that she did not want to make a statement and she was being stood over and bullied,” Mr Percy said.
“That’s wrong your honour,” the witness replied.
The court has heard attempts were made to obtain an indemnity from prosecution for Ms Vass, but those attempts were unsuccessful.
Mr McLaren’s evidence finished shortly before 3pm and he was excused.
UPDATE, 2.40pm: Under questioning by Neill-Fraser’s counsel Tom Percy, QC, Mr McLaren denied suggestions he had made up notes of an early morning phone call with key witnesses and their associates in January 2017.
“That is totally incorrect,” he said. “If you look at the volley of calls coming in on my phone from contact after contact in the early hours of the morning and then I made those notes and then I signed them.”
Mr McLaren said his intention when dealing with witness Meaghan Vass was to build her statement gradually by making “baby steps”..
“Normally they [witnesses] will relax and see everything is ok and relax and come back for more and more and more,” he said.
“Hit them with the whole lot at once and you may well just get someone who keeps locking up.”
He said Ms Vass was one of the most diffucilt witnesses he had dealt with, putting her at 15 on a scale of one to ten.
“She is probably the most fractured and conflicted witnesses I have ever dealt with, and I have dealt with some very sad cases.”
UPDATES FROM WEDNESDAY MORNING’S PROCEEDINGS
THE quizzing of former Victorian detective and final witness in the Susan Neil-Fraser last-ditch appeals case, Colin McLaren, by Director of Public Prosecutions Daryl Coates SC continued in the Supreme Court of Hobart.
The detective turned true crime writer, who started researching the Neill-Fraser case in 2016 told a court a homeless girl whose DNA was found on the yacht where Neill-Fraser’s partner was killed was a crucial witness with evidence that could result in the convicted killer being pardoned. Follow the coverage below:
UPDATE, 12.55pm: In the final minutes before the luncheon adjournment, Mr McLaren was questioned about payments made to several people by investigators working on behalf of Neill-Fraser.
Mr McLaren said some were to cover expenses, but he said he did not know what others were for.
Mr Coates asked Mr McLaren about a conversation he had with documentary maker Eve Ash.
A video of the conversation was played to the court.
“You saw the benefits of giving away $750,” Mr McLaren was heard to say.
Mr Coates said Mr McLaren’s claim to have no knowledge of that payment has been shown by the video to be “an outright lie”.
“It wasn’t an outright lie, I just had no recollection,” he said.
“It was a two-minute conversation two years ago.”
Mr McLaren said payments were made to a woman Meaghan Vass was staying with were to ensure the pair weren’t evicted.
Justice Brett asked Mr McLaren about how changes were made to Ms Vass’ statement.
“From memory I had a copy and I jotted them down and took them back,” he said.
Mr McLaren said he had not retained the copy of the statement he made notes on.
And he admitted leaving out comments from Ms Vass’ that the judge said appeared critical to the case.
They were:
“There was a fight. I saw it and I f***** off”.
Ms Vass allegedly named two people involved in the fight.
“Sometimes you can put too much in these memory recall sessions and they just lock up,” Mr McLaren said. “I chose to keep it as soft as possible,” he said.
Mr Coates has concluded his cross examination of the witness and the court has adjourned for the lunch break.
Court resumes at 2.15pm.
UPDATE, 12.20pm: In a videotaped conversation played to the court, Mr McLaren spoke about Ms Vass’ statutory declaration.
He had taken extra copies of the document to the clubhouse of the Devil’s Henchmen motorcycle gang: “in case the bitch screws it up”.
Mr McLaren said he had been asked to find Ms Vass’ diary, which allegedly includes an entry that woulc prove the convicted killer’s innocence, to assist the defence case.
“We’re creating a little diary note, aren’t we? That’s the cleverness,” he said.
Mr McLaren talked about putting the statement in front of the Premier, the Attorney General and the Solicitor General to help Ms Neill-Fraser’s appeal.
“It’s all over,” he said.
UPDATE, 11.55am: Mr McLaren said the words in Ms Vass’ statutory declaration were her own.
He denied making changes himself, but said any amendments were made by Ms Vass herself.
Sections of the statement were read to the court. Mr McLaren insisted the words were Ms Vass’ own – not his – and that any amendments were her doing.
The statement read in part:
“I was on the Four Winds yacht on the night of Australia Day 2009.
“I was there with people I won’t name. I don’t want to give any details except that I was on the yacht.
“The lady Sue Neill-Fraser was not on the yacht. I’ve never met her. I do not know her. I just know she is in prison.
“I’m scared and I’ve thought about it every day for the past eight years. Nobody understands my grief and I want to be left alone.
“I do not want to say any more.”
UPDATE, 11.40am: Mr McLaren said he was determined to try to explain why a large sample of Ms Vass’ DNA was found on the yacht from which Mr Chappel disappeared.
“In my own heart of hearts I don’t believe she could have done harm to Bob Chappell, so others must have been involved,” he said.
“She may have been the murderer, I don’t think so, as a slight 16-year-old girl.
“We were considering all possibilities.
“Perhaps she was innocent of it all except for being on the yacht when she shouldn’t have been.”
Proceedings have adjourned for 15 minutes.
UPDATE 11.10am: Mr McLaren agreed with Mr Coates he had said evidence that Ms Vass was on the boat would be “f***ing compelling”.
Mr Coates read from a transcript of a conversation Mr McLaren had with documentary maker Eve Ash about Ms Vass: “She doesn’t know nothing right, but if we get her to say ‘alright I was on the boat but leave me alone, but I had nothing to do with Bob or killing him’. Even though possibly she did,” Mr McLaren was recorded as saying
“That will get her half a reward, give her 10 grand for that.”
Mr McLaren accepted he made the comments.
“I was brainstorming your honour, coming up with ideas,” he said.
Mr McLaren denied going about his work investigating the case with a particular outcome in mind.
“Wasn’t your entire strategy right from the word go … was to get Meaghan Vass to say that she was on the boat but she didn’t do it. Wasn’t that your entire strategy about that? Mr Coates asked.
Mr McLaren replied: “My strategy was to write a book, which is what I have done and to get as close to as many people as I could, including Meaghan Vass,” he said.
“And the more I spent time with her the more I became aware of how conflicted she was.
“I always kept an open mind, as any good detective would.
The witness agreed his aim was to elicit evidence of Ms Vass remembering being on the yacht, including making the comment: “We’ve got to make her remember then because it’s probably all the dope and all the grog.”
UPDATE 10.55am: Mr Coates asked Mr McLaren why he drafted a statement for Ms Vass despite her apparent poor memory of events and her reluctance to give evidence.
The witness replied that based on their conversations, he believed that Ms Vass had information relevant to the case.
“She made it clear she was in a circle of people, young offenders, stealing from yachts,” he said.
“She didn’t say ‘I was on the Four Winds on Australia Day 2009, I was there [with] people I won’t name’, did she?” Mr Coates asked.
“She didn’t say it like that, no,” Mr McLaren replied.
“She didn’t say anything at all about being on the yacht, did she?
“She alluded to [the fact] that she may have been on the yacht.”
Mr McLaren said his opinion relied on the totality of his conversations with Ms Vass.
“When you take it in context, with the whole document, I was of the view she was involved.”
UPDATE 10:40am: Former Victorian detective and lead witness in the Sue Neill-Fraser appeals case, Colin McClaren, has denied making threats against a homeless girl whose DNA was found on the yacht where Neill-Fraser’s partner was killed.
Mr McLaren denied making threats against Ms Vass during a conversation with documentary maker Eve Ash in a parked car.
“I wouldn’t do that. I wouldn’t act like that in front of a witness. If I spoke like that with Eve it was just small talk,” he said.
A video recording of the conversation was played the court.
Mr McLaren could be heard discussing a court case Ms Vass was expected to attend on the day.
“This shit is going to come crashing down soon. It’s all going to come to a f***ing nightmare for you,” he said.
Ms McLaren denied the comments amounted to a threat.
“It’s just sitting idle in a car, which I did many, many times,” he said.
“It was just basically thinking through situations and thinking about how to get this girl to speak to me. I never said that to Meaghan Vass.”
Neill-Fraser, is present in court for today’s hearing. The public gallery of the Supreme Court in Hobart is full to capacity with her supporters.
UPDATE 10.25am: Former Victorian detective and lead witness Colin McClaren confirms that the subject of his interviews was not attending them voluntarily.
When questioned by DPP Mr Coates, Mr McLaren agreed that when he was speaking to Ms Vass about the case, she had on several occasions expressed a desire to leave the interview, which was conducted in a Hobart hotel room.
“She said that, but she didn’t move,” he said.
He agreed Ms Vass had said she was not attending the interview voluntarily; that she was “too f***ing scared to say ‘no’ to people”.
But he said he believed she was there of her own accord.
“She walked in on her own and she sat down … she had a choice on three occasions over that 24 hour period.”
“She was trying her hardest to get her secrets out. I know I was in for the long haul, but I thought day one was very successful.”
Mr Coates said Ms Vass was agitated during the interview.
“Despite her repeatedly saying she didn’t want to be there – she wasn’t talking, she was screaming wasn’t she?” he asked.
“She always screams your honour … rarely to do see Meghan Vass relaxed or sitting still or being calm.
The witness agreed Ms Vass at one point told him: “Guess what mate, it wasn’t f***ing me”.
UPDATE, 10.15am: DPP Mr Coates led witness Mr McLaren through a series of statements made by another witness, which appeared to contradict his denials Ms Vass was threatened.
Mr McLaren said he regarded the claims as bluster.
“That is the underworld, that is how they speak. What you have to do is try to get to the truth of the matter … it’s only tough talk,” he said.
Mr McClaren said his only aim was to extract truthful information from the witness.
“I’ve interviewed hundreds if not thousands over my career. My job is to put them at ease and get on with the job.
“Some of them are carrying very dark secrets and they’re struggling to get them out.”
“Nobody punched her in the head, nobody threatened to do that.
Mr McLaren said he persisted because Ms Vass slowly began to recall information relevant to the case.
“You’ve got to give it a bit of time, work with the witness. I’ve worked with one for eight months, from telling me where to go, to telling me the whole story of a double murder.”
UPDATE, 10am: A FORMER Victorian detective has denied being aware of any threats being made against a key witness in the Sue Neill Fraser murder appeal.
Colin McLaren, a detective turned true crime writer, is the final witness to appear before the long-running appeal.
Under cross-examination by Director of Public Prosecutions Daryl Coates SC, Mr McLaren denied being aware of any threats being made against a homeless girl whose DNA was found on the yacht where Neill-Fraser’s partner was killed.
The Supreme Court in Hobart on Tuesday heard that Mr McLaren met witness Meaghan Vass in March 2017.
Ms Vass was a homeless 15-year-old when Mr Chappell was murdered and her DNA was found on the Four Winds.
UPDATE, 9.45am: THE Sue Neill-Fraser appeal hearing has resumed in the Supreme Court in Hobart.
Neill-Fraser, 64, is using laws enacted in 2015 to mount an appeal against her conviction for murdering her husband Bob Chappell, 65, aboard the couple’s yacht Four Winds off Sandy Bay on Australia Day 2009.
Neill-Fraser is serving a 23-year jail term after being found guilty by a Supreme Court jury in October 2010. She has maintained her innocence.
Appeals to the Court of Appeal and the High Court were unsuccessful, although her case has been the focus of a concerted public campaign.
Justice Michael Brett is to determine whether Neill-Fraser has a reasonable case to argue on her appeal, on the sole ground that there is “fresh and compelling” evidence.
The hearing has so far been held over several days in October and November 2017, and March, July, August and December last year.
david.killick@news.com.au
UPDATED, TUESDAY: A FORMER Victorian detective who started researching the Susan Neill-Fraser case in 2016 has told a court a homeless girl whose DNA was found on the yacht where Neill-Fraser’s partner was killed was a crucial witness with evidence that could result in the convicted killer being pardoned.
Neill-Fraser, 64, is using laws enacted in 2015 to mount an appeal against her conviction for murdering Bob Chappell, 65, aboard the couple’s yacht Four Winds off Sandy Bay on Australia Day 2009.
Colin McLaren, a detective turned true crime writer, is the final witness to appear before Justice Michael Brett who will decide whether Neill-Fraser has “fresh and compelling” evidence to allow an appeal.
The Supreme Court in Hobart on Tuesday heard that Mr McLaren met witness Meaghan Vass in March 2017.
Ms Vass was a homeless 15-year-old when Mr Chappell was murdered and her DNA was found on the Four Winds.
Neill-Fraser’s lawyer Tom Percy, QC, previously argued there was no satisfactory explanation given to the jury about how Ms Vass’s DNA came to be on the Four Winds.
“Basically what you said to her was that look, all you have to say is that you’re on the boat, that the old guy you didn’t expect him to be there, he arced up and a guy sorted him out and you took off and if you said all that Ms Neill-Fraser would be pardoned and she was in no jeopardy of being charged,” Director of Public Prosecutions Daryl Coates, SC, said to Mr McLaren today.
Mr McLaren said that version was “consistent with what she [Ms Vass] had told me earlier”, referring to a telephone conversation in June 2016.
But Mr Coates said during meetings Mr McLaren had with Ms Vass in March 2017, Ms Vass repeatedly said she did not remember being on the Four Winds, or any yachts.
The court heard Ms Vass told Mr McLaren she had stolen items from shops but never from houses or yachts.
Mr McLaren said Ms Vass said she would have been up for stealing from yachts if her boyfriend at the time had suggested it.
“You asked her: ‘do you believe her [Neill-Fraser] to be innocent or guilty of this crime’,” Mr Coates said.
“Didn’t she respond, ‘I don’t know, I really haven’t thought about it’?”
“That’s right,” Mr McLaren said.
Mr McLaren also said Ms Vass’s DNA being on the yacht was scientific proof that she was on the yacht.
“The scientists didn’t say that, did they?” Mr Coates asked him. “I don’t know,” Mr McLaren said.
The court heard Mr McLaren also told Ms Vass a hair had been found on the yacht that belonged to her.
Mr Coates said this was an “outright lie” and Mr McLaren said it was “a belief”.
“You said it wasn’t analysed so how did you come to the conclusion it was Ms Vass’s?” Mr Coates asked.
“It was my belief,” Mr McLaren said.
He said he lied because he wanted to see Ms Vass’s reaction.
Ms Vass previously gave evidence she was not on board but in April 2017 signed a statutory declaration she had been on the yacht on the day of the murder. Later she told the court she had been under duress when she signed the statutory declaration.
Mr McLaren told the court he was not aware of anyone threatening Ms Vass in relation to her making a statutory declaration about the night of January 26, 2009, and he said she did not complain about being threatened.
Mr McLaren said he prepared the “plain paper” statement on April 21, 2017, for Ms Vass and after she misplaced the first copy he gave her, he delivered her and her boyfriend each a copy on April 23.
“They weren’t saying this is rubbish, they weren’t saying we don’t like this,” Mr McLaren said.
The court heard Ms Vass asked Mr McLaren to add to the statement that she was scared and that nobody understood her grief.
About 60 people filled the public gallery in the courtroom. During the afternoon, Justice Brett warned the public to be quiet during the court proceedings.
“There’s a lot of noises coming from the public gallery and if it continues the court will be cleared,” Justice Brett said.
The hearing continues on Wednesday.
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