Michelle Guthrie says Justin Milne sat in on board meeting when ‘inappropriate touching’ claim was discussed
Michelle Guthrie fled Parliament House via the basement to avoid cameras, as a board member asked for his evidence regarding her sacking to be heard in private.
- ‘Surprised’ Guthrie attacks board
- Turnbull unhappy with Probyn reporting
- ‘I do feel sorry for Ms Alberici’
- Milne ‘shocked’ at review findings
- More than 17 meetings discussed axing
Former ABC managing director Michelle Guthrie and its recent chairman, Justin Milne, have appeared before a Senate inquiry over claims of political interference in the broadcaster’s operations.
• Michelle Guthrie has indicated she wants her job back as ABC managing director
4.21pm: The final word
The final person to give evidence today is board member Jane Connors, appointed after a staff election in May.
She said she first learnt of Mr Milne’s email to “get rid of Emma Alberici” when it was included in the dossier Ms Guthrie gave to the board on the eve of her termination.
“I thought it was a most inappropriate email I did wonder what the context was for the entire exchange. I did wonder why it had taken four and a half months to surface.”
Ms Connors said she regretted that Ms Guthrie had not raised such issues earlier with the board, nor raised the email earlier, if she felt she was under significant pressure.
“I did have multiple responses to it but at no time did I think it was anything other than highly inappropriate.”
So concludes the inquiry for the day.
3.42pm: ‘I can’t unknow what I know’
Donny Walford, a South Australian member of the ABC board, said she did the right thing in taking Michelle Guthrie’s allegations against chairman Justin Milne to the board, which included Mr Milne.
She said Ms Guthrie told her on August 22: “Justin touched me on the back, he interferes in management and he yells at me.”
But Ms Guthrie’s claims did not include allegations of political interference made in the dossier Ms Guthrie presented to the board on the eve of her termination.
Ms Walford told the inquiry “I can’t unknow what I know” and said she asked Ms Guthrie three times for permission to take this to the board.
The board was shocked by the allegations, she said.
Later Ms Guthrie was surprised to learn that the board conversation involved Mr Milne.
“The board is the chair and the directors. I asked for the board meeting to be called and we discussed it, I still to this day think that I did the right thing.”
Ms Walford said he was appointed to the board bypassing the independent appointment panel.
Steven Marshall, leader of South Australian Liberal Party, approached her three years ago and said the prime minister was looking for national board appointments from smaller states.
She was then phoned on Melbourne Cup Day by Communications Minister Mitch Fifield, who asked if she would like to join the board of the ABC.
He told her it was not a fait accompli and the offer needed to go to cabinet and governor-general.
3.01pm: ‘Guthrie sacking, political interference separate’
ABC chairman Justin Milne’s alleged political interference were “separate” from the termination of Michelle Guthrie, ABC board member Joseph Gersh said.
Mr Gersh, appointed in May, was asked how could board sack Ms Guthrie, knowing that ABC chairman Justin Milne had allegations of political interference and misconduct against Ms Guthrie, which he denied.
He replied that while the allegations had received lots of media attention, they needed to be put into context.
“Emma Alberci is still in her job, Andrew Probyn is still in his job and the Triple J Hottest 100 hits was run on a day of its choice, or its listeners choice.
“Allegations of political interference although it is significant… is a separate issue in our minds to the critical issues of the managing director … there are serious and substantial reasons for the decision that we reached.”
But Mr Gersh, who highlighted his legal, finance and cultural organisation credentials, on several occasions asked to give evidence in camera to protect the ABC, around why the board sacked Ms Guthrie.
The inquiry is now hearing from Mr Gersh in private.
2.24pm: Guthrie flees media
Former ABC managing director Michelle Guthrie’s bid to dodge cameras during her speedy departure from Parliament House was assisted by Parliament House security officers and Australian Federal Police.
After she gave evidence at the Senate inquiry into political interference at the ABC, the sacked ABC managing director was escorted to the Parliament House basement in an attempt to avoid media intent on filming her departure.
Two security officers then escorted Ms Guthrie outside, where the group was met by two AFP police cars as Ms Guthrie.
Some media were told their passes could be taken if they continued to film.
Nine Entertainment Co journalist Michael Koziol had the detail of his parliamentary pass recorded by an officer who thought he was being filmed, but it is understood an incident report will not be filed.
Earlier, Ms Guthrie asked for photographers and camera operators to leave the hearing room while she was giving evidence, which is a courtesy extended to those giving evidence but is thought to have not been requested in decades.
1.10pm: ‘Why doesn’t Justin have to go?’
Did the board betray Michelle Guthrie?
The sacked managing director is detailing how she felt isolated and had no-one to turn to in August and September, when her relationship with Mr Milne deteriorated. And that she felt in ignorance about its steps to terminate her.
She discussed her predicament with board member Donny Walford. “She didn’t have the full picture of the private, awful conversations I had been having with Mr Milne.”
Ms Guthrie addresses her allegations of Mr Milne touching her inappropriately at a board dinner in November 2017. Mr Milne denies this.
Ms Guthrie says she referred her claims to Donny Walford, who asked to be allowed to raise it with the board.
Ms Guthrie says she was “incredibly surprised” to learn that Mr Milne had been present when they were discussed.
She then had a meeting with another board member, Joe Gersch, where she felt the purpose of the meeting was to convince her to resign.
“What have I done wrong?” Ms Guthrie asked him. “Why do I have to go, why doesn’t Justin have to go?
“He didn’t have an answer to that.”
Ms Guthrie has now concluded her evidence.
12.40pm: ‘A lack of media experience’
Ms Guthrie criticises the ABC board, which terminated her, saying she has concerns over its skills base, and points to how she came into conflict over the $500 million Project JetStream digital modernisation of the ABC.
“One thing I found very difficult in operating with the board in the environment in the ABC ... I felt very strongly a lack of media experience and felt very strongly a lack of public sector experience.”
She adds that James Spigelman, Mr Milne’s predecessor as chairman, was an “extraordinary chairman” of the ABC.
On Project JetStream, Ms Guthrie says after the government cut $83 million, she formed the view that it was more important for the ABC to attempt to get that funding back.
“I thought it extremely unlikely that this government would fund any project of significant capital requirement,” she says.
Ms Guthrie recalls telling Mr Milne that she didn’t think the government would fund the project. His very strong response was: “are you calling me a liar”.
Ms Guthrie says contact with Communications Minister Mitch Fifield lessened after Mr Milne was appointed, agreeing with a suggestion of Four Corners presenter Sarah Ferguson that this was because the government “had their man”.
She was also excluded from a June meeting in Canberra between Mr Milne and Mr Turnbull and Mr Fifield.
“I felt at a significant disadvantage in having to rely on his account of those meetings and conversations.”
The chair, she felt, “amplified rather than resisted” government dissatisfaction with the ABC. “I did feel under significant pressure because of that.”
Ms Guthrie says sacking Andrew Probyn to secure JetStream funding – a suggestion of Mr Milne, she claims – “seemed to me to be most incredible and ludicrous proposition”.
12.15pm: Milne ‘aggressive, harassing’
There are multiple clear contradictions between Ms Guthrie’s evidence and Mr Milne’s evidence.
But Ms Guthrie has a file note about the particularly contentious June 15 (2017) phone call, which both sides acknowledge was robust, and when he reportedly spoke about “shooting” ABC political journalist Andrew Probyn, which he denies.
Mr Milne follows up an email with a heated phone call to Ms Guthrie, in which he reportedly spoke about “shooting” Probyn.
“There absolutely was a conversation on June 15 about 4pm in a very aggressive, harassing way.”
Earlier today, Mr Milne told the inquiry:
“I have no recollection of berating Ms Guthrie at all.” Mr Milne said the conversation was about funding his pet Project JetStream.
“She is a very well-trained, eloquent lawyer who gives as good as she gets.”
Mr Milne denies most of Ms Guthrie’s recall of the telephone call, including that he said “Malcolm hates Probyn”.
“That is a script that she was written.”
Ms Guthrie says: “That is absolutely not the case.”
She has a file note, written within a week of the conversation, which she will supply to the inquiry.
She also reiterates that Mr Milne spoke to Tripe J staff behind her back, and that the information came from the ABC executive in charge of Triple J, Michael Mason.
“My understanding was that he spoke to the Triple J staff. Not sure if Mr Mason was there, or was told about that.”
12pm: No warning of sacking, Guthrie says
Ms Guthrie is putting in a much more certain performance than her sometimes hesitant Senate Estimates appearances.
She said she was first aware that the board wanted to terminate her was when she was handed a deed or release September 13.
But she added: “I was alarmed by a conversation that I had with (board member) Mr Joe Gersh August 29.”
Ms Guthrie thought the board appointing member Ms Donny Walford as a personal development coach after Ms Guthrie’s poor results in the 360 management feedback system, was inappropriate and a conflict of interest.
“It is very clear that is not whole the system is meant to be used, it is personal development tool, not a tool for sacking people,” Ms Guthrie says.
11.50am: ‘No conversation’ with Emma Alberici
Ms Guthrie reveals that she didn’t have direct meetings with journalist Emma Alberici, but left that to head of news Gaven Morris.
Ms Alberici on Twitter overnight refuted that she was given a “reprimand” by ABC management, as contained in Ms Guthrie’s submission.
Earlier, Mr Milne said he believed Ms Alberici had been “counselled, not a reprimand”
“I can be clear that is was a conversation that was had with Ms Alberici. I didn’t have that conversation,” Ms Guthrie says.
But she did discuss moving Ms Alberici on from her position as chief economics correspondent.
“One of the issues that Mr Morris and I were discussing was whether she was well suited to the role of chief economics correspondent particularly in relation to the need to write long form analytical articles.”
11.35am: Turnbull ‘dissatisfied’ with Probyn
Ms Guthrie is setting out her stall, and pushing back on Mr Milne’s interventionist stance on editorial matters.
The preserve of the board should be editorial governance and policies, rather than individual journalists, she says, “rather than dealing with individual complaints the key issues were for the board to review the processes to ensure that didn’t occur”.
Ms Guthrie gives her version of an encounter with then prime minister Malcolm Turnbull at the AFL grand final last year, when she was approached by him. Mr Turnbull had supported her transformation of the ABC.
She denies a Fairfax report which said Mr Turnbull accused 7.30 chief political correspondent Andrew Probyn of “anti-government” bias.
“There was a comment he made to me about Mr Probyn’s report. He expressed dissatisfaction with his reporting. I think it was in relationship with accuracy,” Ms Guthrie says.
Mr Turnbull didn’t ask her to take any action and Financial Review columnist Joe Aston was present in that conversation, Ms Guthrie says.
11.10am: ‘I remain devastated by my termination’
Michelle Guthrie, who was sacked and received a payout of $800,000, tells the inquiry that she wants her job back.
Seated alone in a dark blazer and red blouse, Ms Guthrie waits for photographers to take pictures before leaving at Ms Guthrie’s request.
“I remain devastated by my termination as managing director.”
“My intention at the time of my appointment and at present is to serve my five-year term.
“And at present” is highly significant. It suggests the Ms Guthrie wants her job back, which is contained in her Fair Work adverse action against the ABC.
Ms Guthrie says in her opening address that she was fighting for the independence of the ABC.
“I believe that my resistance of Mr Milne’s attempts at editorial interference soured our professional relationship and was a significant cause of what I later learned was his frustration with me in the job as managing director.
“Despite raising Mr Milne’s interference with various board members, none gave me any concrete advice or intervened in any way to help stop the chair’s behaviour.
“It is for this reason I have had no option but to challenge the decision to terminate my appointment. For me, personally, this is painful. My character, reputation and life are now on public display and the subject public commentary.
“The absence of any clearly stated reasons has resulted in speculation about my professionalism, skills and capacity. I take pride in my professionalism and my achievements at the ABC during the two and a half years I was in the role.”
11.05am: Guthrie’s turn
Michelle Guthrie takes her seat as she prepares to answer questions from the Senate panel.
10.45am: Milne twists and turns
The contradictions between Ms Guthrie’s written submission and Mr Milne’s recollections are piling up. Mr Milne tells the senators that Ms Alberici was “counselled, not a reprimand” — another contradiction of Ms Guthrie’s evidence.
Senator Keneally is building a case about government interference in the ABC.
Board members Vanessa Guthrie, Joe Gersh and Donny Walford were all appointed to the board by the Communications Minister, bypassing to varying degrees, the independent selection panel, she points out.
Mr Milne says he was unaware of this.
He also rejects that those three members played a key role in board actions the culminated in the decision to sack Ms Guthrie.
Mr Milne, by now red in the face due to the rise in hostility of the questioning, refutes any allegations of political interference.
He is asked what he had done to protect the independence of the ABC.
“All of the things I am said to have done to interfere in the ABC never ultimately occurred.”
No one was sacked, the Hottest 100 was not moved, the swearing on comedy program Tonighty was cleared by the ABC and the regulator, he says.
Mr Milne: “All of these things in my dastardly way never actually occurred.”
Senator Hanson-Young: “Because Ms Guthrie stopped them.”
Senator Keneally points out that Ms Guthrie was then sacked.
“But not because of these matters,” Mr Milne responds.
And that is all from Mr Milne. Ms Guthrie is up next.
10.15am: ‘I do feel sorry for Ms Alberici’
Yet more questions about Emma Alberici prompts Mr Milne to say “I do feel sorry for Ms Alberici and these continual mentions.”
Committee chair Senator Hanson-Young has a sharp rejoinder: “You are the one who said ‘they friggin hate her and want to get rid of her’.”
He denies Ms Guthrie’s submission that he continually told her to get rid of Ms Alberici.
Mr Milne says he never discussed Ms Alberici with the Prime Minister directly.
But then contradicts himself by saying he might have engaged in “football style conversations” about journalistic accuracy with the government.
“It may have come up in conversations with the senator but I never received any instructions.”
The idea of sacking Ms Guthrie, or moving her on, was not his idea, as the emails taken out of conflict might imply.
“All of these ideas were ideas of management and not mine, I was on the fringe of it.”
He said fundamentally it was an issue of trust for the ABC and that Ms Alberici’s journalism was “faulty product”.
If the ABC continues to supply error-ridden journalism people will trust it less, he says.
Senator Hanson-Young is probing Mr Milne over his phrase in an email to Ms Guthrie about Ms Alberici: “They friggin hate her.”
What caused him to come to this view?
Under pressure, Mr Milne responds: “The Zeitgeist, hearing what the Prime Minster said on the floor of parliament.”
9.55am: Triple J intervention denied
Surprise, surprise, here is another disagreement between the former managing director and former chairman, this time over Triple J and the hottest 100, and the drama over moving it from Australia Day, which was very political contentious. This was one of Communications Minister Mitch Fifield’s many complaints to the ABC.
Mr Milne is denying that he intervened directly with Triple J staff behind Ms Guthrie’s back. As she wrote in her submission:
“What I did not know at the time was Mr Milne had intervened with Triple J staff directly and without prior consultation to me. He did not disclose this to me or, as far as I am aware, to other members of the board. It was not until about August 2018 that I learned of this intervention when I had a conversation with Mr Michael Mason, ABC Director for Regional and Local.”
Mr Milne: “I don’t have the slightest memory of that, I don’t have any idea who that would have been.”
“I don’t know any of the staff to contact and I don’t believe I did.”
Later, he says he didn’t discuss with staff. “Not without Michelle there.
“I have zero memory of discussing this with Triple J staff.”
Answering a question, Mr Milne says whether Malcolm Turnbull would “go ballistic”, which he denies saying, was not the point.
“The point in relation to the Hottest 100, the bigger point there is role of the ABC to front run issues,” he says.
“Is it the role of the ABC to actively change the Zeitgeist?” Mr Milne asks, to growing bemusement of senators Keneally and Hanson Young.
“They are responding to the Triple J audience in relation to a piece of radio programming but it is naive to think that doesn’t have wider implications.”
Senator Keneally is a bit incredulous about this, scoffing about the importance of the Hottest 100 broadcast on Australia Day to Australian identity.
“Was that in the constitution, I might have missed that?”
Mr Milne said no but the countdown, which has now been moved, was important to a lot of people’s Australia Day.
9.40am: Details of Guthrie call disputed
Mr Milne pushes back on Ms Guthrie’s characterisation of a contentious phone call on June 15 between the pair. The phone call came after his meeting with the prime minister and communications minister.
In her submission, Ms Guthrie wrote: “During the 15 June Telephone Discussion, Mr Milne was loud and aggressive. He berated me, kept interrupting me and not letting me finish my sentences. I was distressed by my conversation with Mr Milne, shaking and close to tears.”
“I have no recollection of berating Ms Guthrie at all,” Mr Milne told the committee. He said the conversation was about funding his pet Project JetStream.
“One of the few occasions where Michelle Guthrie and I had a disagreement. She is a very well-trained eloquent lawyer who gives as good as she gets.”
Mr Milne denies most of Ms Guthrie’s recall of the telephone call, including that he said “Malcolm hates Probyn”.
“That is a script that she was written.”
9.30am: Fifield approach to Milne revealed
Labor Senator Kristina Keneally is asking about how Mr Milne was selected to chair the ABC. He said he was contacted by a recruitment agency and subsequently (he thinks) Communications Minister Senator Mitch Fifield.
Senator Fifield told Mr Milne words to the effect: “Would you like to throw your hat in the ring, it’s a funny old process but we will go through the process and see what happens.”
Senator Keneally asks if Senator Fifield encouraged Milne to apply.
“That would be fair, I didn’t need much encouragement,” he replied.
Senator Keneally is probing Mr Milne’s relationship with former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull, often described as a close friend of Mr Milne’s.
Mr Milne said Mr Turnbull was a: “Good acquaintance and business associate of mine ... I count him as a friend ... I wouldn’t put myself at the top of his tree, I am just one of many people he knows.”
“Have you even kayaked with the prime minister?” Senator Keneally asks.
“No. I’m not a kayaker,” Mr Milne replies.
Senator Keneally is asked if she has ever kayaked with Mr Turnbull, and says she hasn’t had the pleasure.
9.10am: Guthrie review ‘shocking’
Mr Milne is speaking clearly and confidently, but then he is used to handling such situations. Ms Guthrie, much less so.
He says law firm Clayton Utz’s advice was that Ms Guthrie’s termination was “completely and utterly consistent with the contract she had signed”.
The results of a 360 management review, which Ms Guthrie participated in, were “shocking” he said.
“They were a source of enormous concern to me and Kirstin Ferguson, chair of the remuneration committee. The results were so outside the norm they couldn’t be waved away.”
The board appointed board member Donny Walford, an expert in the 360 process, to act as a coach for Ms Guthrie to try and improve her performance.
Mr Milne says he consulted about eight people about Ms Guthrie’s poor leadership, but this did not include director of news Gaven Morris.
Senator Hanson-Young is puzzled by this, saying she thought he would be crucial to such discussions, given the importance of news to the ABC.
Engagement scores, a level of staff satisfaction and happiness, also fell when Ms Guthrie was in charge.
Mr Milne characterised his thinking as “do we continue with this change agent who is losing the people?”
He said the board was “unanimous in its conviction to go down that path but careful until the final moment”.
8.45am: ‘Poor leadership skills’
Mr Milne is in a corporate power uniform of blue jacket and patterned blue tie and doesn’t look fazed when Senator Hanson-Young informs him that they have two hours to question him!
Mr Milne reads from a statement, making similar points to his submission, which was released last night.
He says Ms Guthrie was sacked due to her poor leadership skills and board’s loss of confidence and Mr Milne says he had never allowed his personal views to influence his role at the ABC.
The board considered terminating Ms Guthrie acted “cautiously and carefully” and met on at least 17 occasions to discuss her performance and termination.
Mr Milne says he tried to uphold editorial standards of the ABC and his quote to “get rid of” chief economics correspondent Emma Alberici was not a direction but his personal view, albeit strongly put.
He says he resigned because it was in the best interests of the ABC, not as an admission of wrong doing.
8.35am: Introductory statement
Inquiry chair Sarah Hanson-Young lays down the ground rules, telling everyone that witnesses can be heard in-camera, that is, in private. Sacked ABC managing director Michelle Guthrie has a Fair Work case against her dismissal, might she request some evidence in private due to that?
She will appear after the man who sacked her, Justin Milne, the ABC chairman who resigned three days later amid a storm of alleged political interference.
Details of Senate submissions revealed
In his submission to the inquiry, Mr Milne, who resigned three days after Ms Guthrie was sacked after allegations of his interference leaked, said the termination was due to very poor results in a 360 leadership review, including that Ms Guthrie’s score for integrity was in the fourth percentile, meaning 96 per cent of people scored above her, while her score for autocracy, arrogance, criticism and distance was in the 90th percentile, meaning only 10 per cent of people scored above her.
Guthrie and journalist Emma Alberici have clashed over a submission to the inquiry that the ABC’s chief economic correspondent says contains false claims about her stories.
Ms Guthrie told the inquiry into allegations of political interference in the ABC, that Alberici was “reprimanded” over her stories on company tax and innovation, some of which contained errors in fact and omission, that drew complaints from the prime minister and government ministers.
Alberici responded in series of nine tweets accusing Ms Guthrie of making false claims, “the most egregious of which is that I received a ‘reprimand’ for writing stories that, after much overblown angst, were found to be accurate in substance”.
2
— Emma Alberici (@albericie) November 29, 2018
Read it here
Ms Guthrie makes a number of false claims the most egregious of which is that I received a “reprimand†for writing stories that, after much overblown angst, were found to be accurate in substance pic.twitter.com/FAxhjAuXAF
In her submission, Ms Guthrie accused the ABC of firing her unlawfully because she made complaints about Mr Milne’s conduct, “including his attempts at political interference”.
Ms Guthrie detailed disagreements with the board over her editorial management of contentious events, including reports by Alberici and political editor Andrew Probyn, and that the board reprimanded her for not responding to Melbourne radio announcer Jon Faine’s public criticism of her for not standing up to the government.
She also said director of news Gaven Morris complained to her that then ABC chairman “Justin (Milne) WhatsApped me with comments and complaints from Malcolm (Turnbull) about editorial issues but I told him this was inappropriate and that he needed to stop contacting me in this way.”
More Coverage
Report on ABC’s ‘doctored audio’ scandal blames lawyers
A report has blamed ABC lawyers for failing to pass on complaints by former commando Heston Russell that extra gunshots had been edited into an ABC news report.
‘Pressure from above’: ABC executive pushed by Buttrose
Christopher Oliver-Taylor was under pressure to sack Antoinette Lattouf after Ita Buttrose made clear she was ‘deeply unhappy’ with action taken on the stand-in radio host, the Federal Court has heard.