Q&A recap: Kristina Keneally calls out Tony Abbott and John Howard’s support of George Pell

Labor Senator Kristina Keneally has called out Tony Abbott and John Howard over their support for Cardinal George Pell.

Kristina Keneally appearing on the ABC's Q&A. Picture: ABC

Catholic Lay Leader Francis Sullivan has declared celibacy is a “significant contributing factor” towards child sexual abuse in the church and called for the mandatory practice to be made optional for priests.

He made the comments during an episode of ABC’s Q&A, and was joined by Liberal Senator Jim Molan, Labor Senator Kristina Keneally, Lawyer Viv Waller, and author and Rabbi Shmuley Boteach.

It was an episode of two halves, with the panel largely in agreement over several questions on Cardinal George Pell’s conviction and child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, before moving on to topics of Liberal Party decision-making and pornography.

PELL’S CONVICTION

Responding to a question on the media suppression order placed Cardinal Pell’s trial and the impact that commentary since the outcome has been made public could have on his appeal, panel members made careful comments.

Ms Keneally said “anyone who is passing comment on the jury verdict, unless they were in the room every day, they heard everything the jury heard, they had access to all the information the jury had, they’re doing a great disservice by running that public commentary.

“I’m quite surprised and distressed that people like John Howard and Tony Abbott, particularly Mr Howard, are running this type of commentary and providing support publicly for Cardinal Pell following his conviction. I think it’s disrespectful of the jury verdict.”

Does media commentary around the Pell verdict damage the integrity and public perception of any future appeal decision? #QandA pic.twitter.com/goQKrx1fdB

— ABC Q&A (@QandA) March 4, 2019

“I would also reflect it’s quite disrespectful of victims. The main reason victims often fail to come forward is because they don’t think they’re going to be believed. What do we have here? We have had a legal process, due process, a trial, a jury has rendered a decision and now we have people out there casting doubt on that decision,” she added.

Mr Sullivan, a former CEO of Catholic Health Australia and of the Truth, Justice and Healing Council, said “as far as I’m concerned, everyone should just shut up”.

He also said a “paradigm shift” had been occurring in the church, and that it was required to address the power associated with clericalism that led to abuse.

“Sex abuse is all about the abuse of power and privilege and those who got to participate were the overseers of the abuse scandal. So we have to change that,” he said

Dr Waller, who represents the victim involved in the case that Mr Pell was convicted of, said he client was “quite aware of the fact the criminal process is not yet over and it has been a very stressful journey for him and he’s aware that there is more to come.”

“He is wisely respecting the integrity of the process and keeping his thoughts to himself,” she said.

CELIBACY FOR PRIESTS

Responding to a question about the role of celibacy in sexually abusive behaviour exhibited by priests and Catholic leaders, Mr Sullivan said “I think it’s common sense, even though celibacy doesn’t cause the abuse, sexual abuse of children, it is a significant contributing factor”.

Rabbi Boteach responded “Sex is not a luxury. Sex is a human necessity”.

Is it time for the Catholic Church to remove the restriction against priests marrying? #QandA pic.twitter.com/KsZiDESHRK

— ABC Q&A (@QandA) March 4, 2019

“Sex is about intimacy … So I believe in sex and I think that the pontificate of Pope Francis, who is trying to reform the Church, will not be complete until he addresses this and let us recall

for the first thousand years of the Catholic Church, priests were married and many popes were.” he said.

Ms Keneally said she believed celibacy should be optional, and also urged the Catholic Church to open ordination to married men and women.

“I once sat in my Church while the priest told us to pray because we had a shortage of vocations. Sitting around me was one man who left the priesthood. He was married. Three of us women had degrees in theology and none of us were allowed to take the job because we didn’t fit the physical figure,” she said.

What difference would more of women in positions of influence make in combating abuse within the Church? #QandA pic.twitter.com/L0CUsn99eO

— ABC Q&A (@QandA) March 4, 2019

Mr Molan said: “I agree that we should have more women, it should be optional. It is so out of date, it’s not funny.”

“I don’t see Pope Francis moving in that area at the moment in any way, shape or form. And I think we saw that by the fact his investigation into sexual abuse within the church consisted of a bunch of men, none of whom were married,” he said.

Dr Waller said celibacy might have something to do with the accounts of “extremely manipulative behaviour”, but that “underlying power” of the priests also needed to be addressed to avoid them exploiting their knowledge of familial situations to prey on more vulnerable children.

LIBERAL SENATE TICKET

Asked by host Tony Jones why he remains so loyal to the Liberal Party after being placed in an unwinnable position on the senate ticket, Mr Molan said he respected his party.

“I’m a loyal person to the Liberal Party. I find extraordinary problems with the New South Wales division of the Liberal Party and the machine that sits behind it.

“People are out the saying I’m running a campaign for a below the line voting campaign. I’m not.

“But the point that I do make is that everyone in New South Wales has the right as Malcolm Turnbull made it very, very easy, to vote below the line. I can’t advocate they vote for me but if you vote above the line I’m out,” he said.

PORNOGRAPHY AND LONELINESS

Asked about pornography being a symptom of growing loneliness in society, Rabbi Boteach, a TV marriage counsellor in the US and author of the book Kosher Sex, called pornography “the living degradation of women”.

Instead of eliminating pornography, should we try to find a cure for loneliness? #QandA pic.twitter.com/4GnYE3Tprm

— ABC Q&A (@QandA) March 4, 2019

“It trains the male mind to see the woman as a means to an end. It makes women into the walking embodiment of a male erotic fantasy. And it leads to disrespect because it means that women exist to fulfil those erotic fantasies.

“I actually think it does a serious toxic harm to how men view women and it makes them very objective about women.

“It makes men think that sex is not sensual, it’s not about connecting with a woman, but it’s about doing things to a woman. I think the toxicity has to be exposed.

Rabbi Boteach’s candour on the topic was praised by the panel, with Mr Molan saying he had “never heard a Catholic priest talk like that” and that Catholics in Australia were “all so uptight about most things”.