John Barilaro inquiry as it happened: Former deputy premier appears at hearing; denies creating trade role for himself

That concludes the sixth day of hearings into John Barilaro’s controversial appointment to the New York trade role. These were the highlights:

• Barilaro’s girlfriend and former staffer, Jennifer Lugsdin, was working as a media adviser at Investment NSW while the agency was advertising the New York trade role. Email chains show that Lugsdin was informed that then-trade minister Stuart Ayres wanted to readvertise the New York role through correspondence dated December 10, a week before the role was advertised. Agency boss Amy Brown said there were no records of her making a conflict of interest declaration.
• Brown has told the inquiry that negotiations for the London-based trade commissioner role became “quite threatening” and that the candidate escalated salary concerns above her head and directly to the minister. She said the agent-general initially expected $800,000 to take on the role.
• Former NSW premier Barry O’Farrell was the third person who provided Barilaro with a reference for the New York trade role. The other referees were Department of Regional NSW secretary Gary Barnes and ambassador to the United States Arthur Sinodinos.
• Barilaro rejected “any suggestion of wrongdoing” and the suggestion he created the New York-based trade role for himself. “I refute any suggestions that I sought out any special treatment during the public service job process where an independent panel, on merit, put me forward as the preferred candidate,” he said. “I’m the victim, I’m not the perpetrator.”
• He said he spoke to NSW Premier Dominic Perrottet, former trade minister Stuart Ayres and Treasurer Matt Kean before he applied on January 19. “At no point did anyone ever raise a concern about me applying for this role,” he said. He said the fact he was selected for the New York trade post by a public service panel – rather than his colleagues – gives him cover against “jobs for the boys” allegations.
• But, in hindsight, he never would have applied for the role. “I wish I never had applied. If I knew what I knew now, I wouldn’t have walked into this shitshow. I’m going to use those terms, I’m sorry to say, because the trauma I’ve gone through over the last six to seven weeks has been significant,” he said.
• Barilaro denied knowing about Gladys Berejiklian’s resignation in advance, when he was asked about being interviewed by the ICAC in private on September 10. “If we’re to believe your version of events, Mr Barilaro, we have to basically conclude that you’re one of the luckiest men in NSW politics,” Labor’s Daniel Mookhey said. “I will absolutely refute that disgusting slur and accusation,” Barilaro said. “You’re making me out to be corrupt.”

That’s all for today - I’m Natassia Chrysanthos signing off the blog.

We will be back on Friday, when the inquiry is set to resume.

Investment NSW boss Amy Brown has told the parliamentary inquiry that negotiations for the London-based trade commissioner role became “quite threatening” and that the candidate escalated salary concerns above her head and directly to the minister.

The inquiry is probing the appointment of John Barilaro to a New York trade role, but Labor is seeking to expand its remit to include other international postings including the London appointment.

Brown said she had a conversation with London agent-general Stephen Cartwright about his salary last October, while a senior lawyer from Investment NSW was on the phone. By this time, Dominic Perrottet had become premier.

She said it was during this conversation that Cartwright invoked the names of the deputy premier and premier while negotiating.

Department secretary Amy Brown gives evidence on Monday.Credit: Kate Geraghty

“It was actually the name of the premier that jumped out at me,” Brown told the inquiry.

“I sent a follow-up text to my general counsel to say I didn’t like that... I said, I found it quite threatening.

“It was at that point he was saying that he would talk to [Department of Premier and Cabinet secretary] Michael Coutts-Trotter, or even the minister or the premier, because the current outcome is not what I was offered.”

Labor: Offered by whom?

Brown: I don’t know... whether or not we’re just misaligned on what the contract says or whether there was something else that he’s referring to... In my mind, it was a difference in interpretation. Rereading the correspondence, I can’t be certain of that.

Brown has told the inquiry that Cartwright sought the intervention of then-Trade Minister Stuart Ayres via WhatsApp in March this year, regarding his concerns about how his pay was structured.

Labor: You’re his employer and he went over your head?

Brown: Yeah... The good thing about it was that Minister Ayres contacted me and said: Look, you can do what you like because Mr Cartwright is your employee, I just want to give you a heads up [that] I’ve got this message. It might be a good idea to benchmark against other states and see what they do, but I’m not telling you what to do and I really don’t care about the outcome, basically.

Investment NSW Amy Brown has confirmed reports that former Labor leader Jodi McKay and former Liberal minister Pru Goward were interviewed for trade commissioner roles as “late considerations”.

Brown said the deputy premier at the time, John Barilaro, called her in August last year to ask if he could refer the trade commissioner roles to other people. She said he could.

Former NSW opposition Leader Jodi McKay.Credit: Louise Kennerley

He then said two people would apply - McKay and Goward - and texted Brown their phone numbers. Brown called each of them to inform them of the process.

“I knew that I didn’t have to interview them, but I definitely thought that each of these individuals would be really interesting people to interview and that they would have something to say about the opportunities, so I was keen to include them on the list,” she told the inquiry.

Neither McKay nor Goward were ultimately successful.

Government MP Wes Fang asked Brown whether there was any political pressure placed on her to reverse that decision. She said there was not.

Brown said this happened while the roles were strict public sector appointments - before Barilaro’s cabinet submission to make them ministerial appointments - and so “I wasn’t engaging with any ministers on them at all”.

The chief of staff to then-treasurer Dominic Perrottet, Bran Black, told Investment NSW boss Amy Brown to consider paying a “private sector size salary” to the London agent-general applicant, the inquiry has heard.

Brown said she called the staffer with concerns about salary negotiations for the London role, for which the applicant expected $800,000.

“I think the initial basis for my phone call was [that a] salary that high for any public service role is ridiculous,” Brown said.

The inquiry also established that Brown was not allowed to pay someone that much money under the government sector employment act.

But Brown said she was encouraged to consider a higher salary.

“They just told me to bear in mind the importance of the role and the opportunities, and that if we’re going to attract someone of high calibre, we needed to pay a private sector size salary,” Brown said.

“He referred to a trade delegation that he’d been on himself in some other role, and the opportunities that he saw when he was over there - all of which are completely valid and I agree with - and said, you know, we haven’t had anyone in country for a long time and let’s make sure we choose someone of high calibre.”

Labor: Was it more advice or opinion for you to consider?

Brown: Strong opinion... I got the impression that I should consider the candidate’s requests very seriously.

Labor’s Daniel Mookhey asked whether that person was still Perrottet’s chief of staff, and Brown agreed.

She said she later had a similar conversation with someone in then-premier Gladys Berejiklian’s office, and they thought the salary expectation was unrealistic.

The state’s London-based trade commissioner initially expected $800,000 to take on the role, Investment NSW boss Amy Brown has told the inquiry.

Labor is probing the appointment of the London agent-general role as part of the inquiry and says that salary would have made the position the second-highest paid public servant in NSW.

Brown told the inquiry the appointment of Stephen Cartwright, the former chief executive of lobby group Business NSW, had featured “heightened” negotiations around pay.

Department secretary Amy Brown gives evidence for the third time.Credit: Kate Geraghty

Labor asked her why the process was complicated.

“I think, to be honest, the salary package and what that package was composed of... Base salary, as it’s known, versus cost of living allowance or even relocation expenses,” Brown said.

“By the time [the appointment process] was transferred to me there seem to be unmatched expectations between the candidate and what I saw as within my delegation to be able to sign off on.

“And so I suppose I had to deliver some hard messages to the candidate, around some of the conversations that had happened previously weren’t going to turn out to be the reality.”

She said she gave the premier’s office at least one update on how the negotiations were progressing.

Last week, Brown told the inquiry that Cartwright felt he had “some sort of an elevated status” in the negotiations. “When negotiations got particularly difficult, he said, ‘I’ll just escalate this to the deputy premier or the premier’,” she said.

Investment NSW boss Amy Brown is now appearing before the parliamentary inquiry for the third time.

She is being asked about her agency’s employment of John Barilaro’s girlfriend and former staffer Jennifer Lugsdin.

Brown said Lugsdin was engaged via a contractor to start a contract appointment with Investment NSW on August 16, 2021.

John Barilaro’s girlfriend Jennifer Lugsdin.Credit: LinkedIn

Labor: Do you recall what Mr Barilaro said to you in relation to this?

Brown: He said that there was a senior media adviser in his office who was looking for new opportunities [and] that he’d heard through the grapevine that we were building out our communicate media and communications team.

I said to him, that is likely to be the case, she’s welcome to... apply for opportunities.

Labor: Just to clarify, Mr Barilaro made no comments in relation to any relationship he had with the senior media adviser, other than a professional one?

Brown: No comments, other than a professional relationship.

Brown told the inquiry that Investment NSW asked Lugsdin to make a conflict of interest declaration in December, after media reports about her relationship with Barilaro.

“But we don’t actually have records of that happening. Most likely because we finished up her employment with us on the 22nd of December, which was only a number of days after,” she said.

Email chains show that Lugsdin was informed that then-trade minister Stuart Ayres wanted to readvertise the New York role through correspondence dated December 10, a week before the role was advertised.

Former deputy premier John Barilaro was asked about his relationship with his girlfriend and former staffer Jennifer Lugsdin, who was working as a media adviser at Investment NSW while the agency was advertising the New York trade role.

The inquiry heard that Lugsdin was a media officer in Barilaro’s office, and that he called Investment NSW boss Amy Brown on her behalf to “put forward her credentials” for a job last year.

According to Lugsdin’s LinkedIn profile, she worked at Investment NSW on a contract between August and December.

Barilaro said he could not remember when that conversation with Brown took place. However, he said he was not in a relationship with Lugsdin at the time.

“I was not in a relationship with her while I was deputy premier or trade minister,” Barilaro said under questioning.

“She had a short-term contract [with Investment NSW] that finished in December, well before I applied for the job in January.”

Government MPs said questions about Barilaro’s personal relationship fell outside the inquiry’s terms of reference.

But the opposition said they went to the question of whether Barilaro knew that the trade job was coming, and if there was a reasonable basis for him to anticipate the role would be advertised. They also established the nature of his interactions with Investment NSW.

Labor MP Penny Sharpe said the opposition would be introducing evidence on Friday that shows Lugsdin was involved in media releases advertising the New York trade role.

“We’re flagging that we will be spending more time on this... which is how you came to know about the job,” she said.

“Someone you are in relationship with... clearly was aware about the various processes associated with the advertising and the nature of this position.”

Government MPs invited John Barilaro to respond to a statement tendered to the inquiry by his former chief of staff, Mark Connell.

Connell last month provided explosive written evidence to parliament claiming his ex-boss told him in 2019 he would create a position in New York to ensure he had a job to go to after he left politics.

The alleged conversation took place about April 2019, after Barilaro purportedly returned from a meeting with then-treasurer Dominic Perrottet and then-industry minister Stuart Ayres to discuss the restoration of the agent general position in the UK.

Connell alleged Barilaro said a New York trade post was: “the job for when I get the f--- out of this place”.

Barilaro has completely denied the allegations.

Former deputy leader John Barilaro leaves NSW Parliament, where he gave evidence.Credit: Nick Moir

“There are a few things to talk about here. Firstly, you’ve just won a historic third term. I think the last thing I’d be doing is talking about my exit,” he said towards the end of his evidence.

“He referred to April that I came back from a meeting. Now I’ve checked all my records as best as I can... There was never any meetings in April, May or June.

“I don’t believe his account is correct... There’s a series of events there that can clearly demonstrate that he’s got the timelines wrong. There were no meetings. He was more than likely on a break during that period he referred to.

“And the appointments or the decisions around where the [trade commissioners] would be, the office locations etcetera, were actually made by the public service and that was already given as evidence by those public servants last week to this hearing.”

Government: That statement was incorrect, but it was tabled and given weight by the opposition, and that had a detrimental effect to you and your reputation.

Barilaro: People are allowed to put forward what they believe and genuinely if that’s what Mr Connell believes occurred, it’s up to him to put that statement forward.

But he said his evidence countered the accuracy of the statement.

Barilaro’s evidence has now concluded.

Inquiry chair Cate Faehrmann asks John Barilaro: “Can you see why the public is suspicious about this whole process?”

Barilaro: I absolutely understand. That is why I’m here today, voluntarily, to explain the process. It was a public service, independent process. Just because you’re a former member of parliament doesn’t exclude you.

Faehrmann: Did you have any concerns when you heard the Public Service Commissioner, for example, on Friday afternoon, saying that she wouldn’t have endorsed the selection panel report if she knew then what she knows now?

Barilaro: The reality is that I didn’t know any of that either. So just like the Public Service Commissioner, I didn’t know that there were those intersections, if that’s the word that was being used. I went into an independent process that a panel assessed me and offered me a job.

Other evidence has come about. But that’s not on me. I had no role in seeking any favour or special treatment in the process. It’s just impossible, it’s an independent public service process.

Faehrmann: I put to you then the person that was doing your bidding was minister [Stuart] Ayres.

Barilaro: I don’t believe he was doing my bidding. Listening to the evidence of last week, he was sought advice on a number of occasions and he gave that advice.

Now, it looks muddy and messy. Absolutely, I can understand the perception and understand what’s occurred in the public. I’m not silly, I understand that. But that wasn’t the case ... I genuinely believed the process was fair ... and that would give me cover.

The political attack was always going to come, I’m not silly about that, but I was confident that the process was so clean, so independent, that my selection [could easily stand]. [I’m] disappointed that it hasn’t been as clean as it should have been, and I’m the victim, I’m not the perpetrator.

What did I do wrong? I got offered a job, I accepted the job ... I can’t tell you what occurred behind closed doors because I wasn’t involved in it.

Labor’s Daniel Mookhey puts the following timeline to Barilaro:

• September 10: Barilaro gives private evidence to the ICAC about then-premier Gladys Berejiklian.
• September 16: Barilaro lodges cabinet submission to change trade role appointment process to ministerial decisions.
• September 24: Barilaro tells a court he is intending to resign.
• September 27: Cabinet agrees to Barilaro’s submission.
• October 1: Berejiklian resigns.
• October 4: Barilaro resigns.

“It does look like that that cabinet submission was being put forward urgently because you knew that at some point [Berejiklian] was likely to have to resign,” Mookhey says.

“If we’re to believe your version of events, Mr Barilaro, we have to basically conclude that you’re one of the luckiest men in NSW politics.”

Barilaro disagrees. “Actually, [I’m] the unluckiest man in NSW politics I’d argue, because of those series of events,” he says.

“I must be the most powerful man in NSW ... to get a whole cabinet to approve something that they weren’t supportive of.”

Labor suggests that Barilaro knew about Berejiklian’s resignation in advance because he was interviewed by the ICAC in private on September 10.

Barilaro: I will absolutely refute that disgusting slur and accusation.

Labor: Which part of it is disgusting?

Barilaro: You’re making me out to be corrupt.

Earlier he told the inquiry: “You’re coming to a conclusion with no evidence at all... To give credit to what you’ve just said, I must have been the only man in the world that would have known that Gladys Berejiklian was retiring or resigning on the first of October. The events of 1 October changed everything in relation to when I would decide to go or not.”