As it happened: Moira Deeming, John Pesutto defamation case : Deeming takes stand after secret recording played in Federal Court

The court has now been adjourned until 10.15am on Wednesday.

Here’s what we learnt on day-two of the high-stakes legal battle between ousted Liberal Moira Deeming and Opposition Leader John Pesutto:

• A clandestine recording of a 70-minute meeting was played in the Federal Court. In the meeting with Moira Deeming in 2023, Opposition Leader John Pesutto explained how he was trying to position the Victorian Liberal Party, and that what happened at the Let Women Speak rally would affect the party’s ability to prosecute that positioning.
• Deeming denied her views were extremist. Deeming told Pesutto she did not realise the men attending the rally were neo-Nazis. “Very obviously, I’m not a Nazi. And I don’t support Nazis,” Deeming said in the recording.
• Crozier “beyond furious” at Deeming’s handling of rally. Upper house leader of the opposition Georgie Crozier told the meeting the way the Let Women Speak situation had unfolded horrified “any reasonable person … in our country, in our state”.
• Deeming stood by her safe schools program assessment. Asked whether she stood by a 2016 statement that authors of the safe schools program were “paedophile apologists”, Deeming replied: “Absolutely.”
• Deeming agreed she helped organise Let Women Speak rally. The court was read a series of messages between Moira Deeming and British anti-trans rights campaigner Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull. In the exchange, Deeming offers assistance in organising security, equipment and Parliament House steps as a location.

Thanks for following our live blog. That is it for today.

Moira Deeming planned to use the Parliament of Victoria Members’ Annexe to host an event with anti-trans rights campaigner Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull after the Let Women’s Speak rally but could not due to security concerns.

The Parliament of Victoria Members’ Annexe, completed in 2018.Credit: John Gollings

The annexe is a freestanding building within the eastern gardens of the Parliamentary precinct that is linked back into Parliament House via a bridge, tunnel and laneway connections.

“I’d hoped to provide nibbles and some drinks for those attending post rally,” she said.

Deeming was advised it was not possible to bring “non-pass holders” into parliament due to “security arrangements on the weekend”.

Deeming agreed she supplied Keen-Minshull with information on federal and state anti-discrimination and gender identity laws ahead of her visit to Australia.

“I don’t know if she asked for it or if I just gave it to her,” she said.

Moira Deeming says the first contact she had with British anti-trans rights campaigner Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull was ahead of the Let Women Speak rally in March 2023, to tell Keen-Minshull she was excited about her visit to Melbourne.

The court heard a message from Deeming, which read: “Thanks so much for connecting. It’s going to take a global constituency of women to defeat this madness.”

Matthew Collins, KC, asked Deeming what she meant by “this madness”.

“The laws that erase the biological categories of sex for safeguarding, and single-sex spaces for sports ... and things like that,” she said.

Moira Deeming (left) and Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull at the Let Women Speak rally in March 2023.Credit: Twitter

Earlier, Collins had shown the court communication between Deeming and Keen-Minshull whereby arrangements were being made for the rally.

“Did you then offer to organise the venue that is Parliament House steps for the Let Women Speak rally in Victorian?” Collins asked.

“Yes,” Deeming replied.

“And did you offer to organise the public liability insurance for the event?” Collins asked.

Deeming: “Yes.”

Collins: “Did you organise the security guards for the event?”

Deeming: “Yes.”

Collins: “And did you organise and did you pay for the security guards and pay for the sound of their equipment?”

Deming: “Yes.”

Matthew Collins, KC, has asked Moira Deeming what her response had been to media reporting that described her views as “extremist”.

Moira Deeming on Monday.Credit: Jason South

Earlier, Collins had shown her articles from February 2023, a month before the Let Women Speak rally, in which Pesutto defended Deeming.

At the time, Pesutto had declined to condemn her views on abortion, the safe schools program and on the trans community.

Deeming told the court she recollected that Pesutto told a press conference: “I love everyone.”

She felt this implied a juxtaposition between them. She said Pesutto had not publicly corrected a characterisation in the media that she held extreme views despite her requests that he do so.

Moira Deeming says she stands by a previous statement that the safe schools program authors were “putting paedophilia garbage in our school curriculums”.

Asked whether she stood by a 2016 statement that its authors were “paedophile apologists”, Deeming replied: “Absolutely.”

Deeming said her main problem with the safe schools program was that it reduced child safeguarding standards.

Moira Deeming (left) and her barrister Sue Chrysanthou arrive at the Federal Court on Tuesday.Credit: AAP

She said the program made allowances for male teachers to supervise female change rooms.

She said it also “promoted high-risk sexual activities” while downplaying the risk.

“It promotes anal sex without, when I was researching it, without covering any of the risks that are permanent, long term,” she said.

“And they would have a right to know, I would have thought.”

Moira Deeming has accepted that she had controversial views on trans and gender diverse people.

She is currently facing cross-examination from Victorian Liberal Party leader John Pesutto’s barrister Matthew Collins, KC, on the second day of the Federal Court trial.

Collins asked if she accepted that her views about trans and gender diverse people were controversial in the Liberal Party.

“Yes,” she replied.

Collins has also asked her about controversy in the Liberal Party on whether or not she should have been preselected and about Victoria’s safe schools program.

Collins has taken her to comments she made in 2016 that the safe schools program was “sleazy unnecessary drivel”.

The defamation trial has just resumed after the lunch break.

In case you missed it, we earlier heard a clandestine recording of a meeting between the Victorian Liberals’ leadership team and Moira Deeming in March 2023.

It ended with Opposition Leader John Pesutto flagging Deeming’s expulsion, or offering for her to resign.

Moira Deeming has been called to the stand in the Federal Court.

She has taken an oath and is confirming details of her identity and her affidavit.

Matthew Collins, KC, has now begun a cross-examination.

Moira Deeming is being represented by high-profile barrister Sue Chrysanthou, SC, in the three-week defamation trial against Victorian Opposition Leader John Pesutto.

Chrysanthou recently successfully represented journalist Lisa Wilkinson in Bruce Lehrmann’s defamation case.

Barrister Sue Chrysanthou, SC, during a previous case.Credit: James Brickwood

Her previous clients also include former attorney-general Christian Porter, and former commando Heston Russell.

Chrysanthou has earned a reputation as one of Australia’s most prominent defamation lawyers.

Barrister Matthew Collins, KC, representing Pesutto, also has a reputation for tackling significant defamation cases in Australia.

He represented Fairfax Media in 2015 in a case against former treasurer Joe Hockey and the ABC in a case against underworld figure Mick Gatto.

The clandestine recording of the March 2023 meeting between the Victorian Liberals’ leadership team and soon-to-be-ousted MP Moira Deeming gave us some insight into how the situation unfolded.

The Federal Court has broken for lunch until 2.15pm.

For now, here are some key takeaways from the hearing:

• Opposition Leader John Pesutto said early in the meeting that he was “getting clobbered” over the story of Nazis at the Let Women Speak rally.
• He told Deeming the situation was not about her personal views but rather, the “toxicity” attached to the event.
• Deeming staunchly defended herself in the recorded meeting, repeatedly asserting that she is not a Nazi, does not have Nazi links and did not realise Nazis were at the event until she saw police taking them away.
• Deputy Liberal leader David Southwick pointed to a tweet by Melbourne woman Angela Jones — who Deeming celebrated with after the rally — saying it was seriously offensive to Jewish people. The post said: “Nazis and women want to get rid of pedo filth, why don’t you?”
• Pesutto said there would be a public perception that the Liberals hate the LGBTQ community.
• Deeming repeatedly offered to condemn Nazism and said she did not believe there were connections between the transgender community and paedophilia.
• Deeming’s barrister Sue Chrysanthou, SC, said the meeting was a “shocking pile-on”, in which her client was harangued and misled.
• Pesutto ultimately flagged Deeming’s expulsion in the meeting but asked her to tell him if she wanted to resign.

A reminder: the recorded meeting we just detailed was held on March 19, 2023 – the day after the Let Women Speak rally.

Other than Moira Deeming and John Pesutto, the meeting’s attendees included deputy Liberal leader David Southwick, leader of the opposition in the upper house Georgie Crozier, then-deputy leader of the upper house Matt Bach, and Pesutto’s then-chief of staff Rodrigo Pintos-Lopez.

Moira Deeming in June 2023.Credit: Joe Armao

They will all give evidence at the defamation trial. Bach has since left the parliament and moved to the UK, and was ordered to fly to Melbourne for the case.

Bach told Deeming in the meeting: “I don’t think there is a way forward. These are your people.”

Southwick told the meeting that Deeming’s views were not mainstream.

Pesutto said in the meeting that his leadership team could not force anything on Deeming but, added: “I am concerned about the damage that this has done to the party.”

Pesutto ultimately told Deeming he was going to move a motion for the parliamentary party room to expel her.

“If you wanted to, you could resign in the meantime. But that’s for you,” Pesutto said.

“If you do want to resign, let me know.

“I’m very sorry it’s come to this, but I just don’t feel I have a choice.”

He said it was not personal and explained the logistics of the process to expel her.

“We are committed to winning in 2026 … I am already being attacked again on social media but this time by ministers and the government who are already gunning for me this week,” Pesutto said.

Deeming’s barrister Sue Chrysanthou SC told the court that Deeming was “ambushed”. She said Deeming had already made concessions but that Pesutto never intended on giving her the opportunity.