Moira Deeming takes the stand in John Pesutto defamation case
Moira Deeming has taken the stand on the second day of her defamation trial against John Pesutto, telling the court she accepted that her views on trans people were controversial.
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Exiled Liberal Moira Deeming has taken the stand in her highly-anticipated defamation trial against Opposition Leader John Pesutto.
Mrs Deeming claims Mr Pesutto defamed her by painting her as a Nazi sympathiser after the ‘Let Women Speak’ rally she helped organise on March 18, 2023 was attended by white supremacists.
She was suspended and ultimately expelled from the Liberal Party two months later.
Earlier on Tuesday, a 70-minute bombshell recording was played in court detailing what took place behind closed doors in a high powered meeting of the Liberal leadership over Mrs Deeming’s attendance at the rally.
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Deeming takes stand; acknowledges her views were ‘controversial’
Mrs Deeming has been questioned on her “controversial views” on trans and gender issues, which met some opposition within the Liberal Party.
Mr Pesutto’s barrister, Dr Matt Collins AM KC, said the party’s administrative committee was divided as to whether to approve her endorsement in the preselection in the state.
Asked if she remembered if there was some opposition to her endorsement, Mrs Deeming said: “Yes”.
But she said she only knew then-manager of opposition business, Louise Staley, didn’t endorse her, when she saw it in court documents.
Dr Collins has told the court there is a “large body of evidence showing hateful views” by Mrs Deeming.
He raised with Mrs Deeming her “controversial views” about the Labor government’s Safe Schools program in 2016.
She conceded that at the time she labelled the program “sleazy, unnecessary drivel” and “garbage”.
“I think these programs are outrageous,” Mrs Deeming, a former teacher, told the court.
“It has nothing to do with bigotry.
“The reason why people see me as controversial is because they don’t know the program as well as I do.
“I am not willing to stop protecting children just because people misrepresent me.”
‘What is the point of all of this?’
Dr Collins showed Mrs Deeming a social media post by her predecessor for the western metropolitan region, Bernie Finn, which included an image of former premier Daniel Andrews with a Hitler moustache.
When he asked Mrs Deeming if she condemned such a post, her barrister, Sue Chrysanthou SC, objected.
“I do not understand why this is being asked. He has nothing to do with this case,” Ms Chrysanthou said.
Dr Collins said the case centred around Mrs Deeming’s failure to call out, loudly and unequivocally, Neo-Nazis.
But Ms Chrysanthou told the court Mr Finn’s post happened when her client was not even a member of parliament.
“What is the point of all of this?” she said.
Justice John O’Callaghan labelled the picture “ridiculous”, before saying, “I think Ms Chrysanthou has a point.”
Deeming ‘impressed’ by British activist
In one of the last lines of questioning before the court adjourned for the day, Dr Collins raised interactions, including messages and emails, between Mrs Deeming and British anti–transgender activist Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull.
He asked Deeming what she meant when saying “it’s going to take a global constituency of women to defeat this madness” in one message sent to Ms Keen-Minshull ahead of the ‘Let Women Speak’ rally, at which she was a speaker.
Explaining the “madness” she was referring to, Mrs Deeming said said: “The laws that erase the biological categories of sex for safeguarding, and single-sex spaces for sports.”
Mrs Deeming said she first met Ms Keen-Minshull at the rally, but had known of her from watching interviews on mainstream British TV shows.
She said she was “impressed” by one interview she saw after Ms Keen-Minshull had been questioned by police for putting up a billboard containing the definition of an adult female.
“I was impressed with her stance and she argued her position well,” she said.
Mrs Deeming said she paid for security and sound equipment used at the rally from her own pocket.
Mrs Deeming will return to the witness stand on Wednesday.
Earlier on Tuesday...
In a secretly recorded meeting the day after the rally in which Mr Pesutto had called Mrs Deeming into, the opposition leader told her of his concerns for organising a protest with Nazis.
“There’s this very concerning perception out there that we are associated with Nazis,” Mr Pesutto said, talking about his party.
“It’s going to be toxic for us.
“They see them attached to you – they see them attached to us – we have a huge problem now.
“I am getting clobbered.”
Mrs Deeming said she had no idea the Nazis were even at the rally until police arrested them because they were wearing black and no insignia.
“Are you accusing me of actual Nazi links?” Mrs Deeming is heard asking Mr Pesutto.
“Very obviously, I am not a Nazi, and I don’t support Nazis.”
‘A form of gaslighting’: Lawyer says Deeming subjected to shocking attack
The meeting, which was also attended by Georgie Crozier and David Southwick, became heated at times, with the parties talking over the top of each other.
Mrs Deeming’s barrister Sue Chrysanthou SC repeatedly stopped the recording, telling the court that her client was being subjected to a “shocking” and “prolonged” attack.
“It’s a form of what young people call gas lighting,” she said. “They bullied her.”
Pesutto’s ultimatum to Deeming
Mr Pesutto told Mrs Deeming he came into the meeting thinking there would be two outcomes.
“Either you resign from the parliamentary party,” he said, before adding, or he would look at “a process under the parliamentary rules”.
Deeming: “Before I came in here, I didn’t think that was even anywhere near a reasonable case to make that argument.”
He later told her that she may be better off being an Independent MP so she could have “complete freedom”.
In the recording, Opposition Minister for Health Georgie Crozier repeatedly said how “bitterly disappointed” she was.
“I am beyond furious because of the work we have done, the time we have put in to get the worst government in the state’s history on the ropes,” Ms Crozier said.
Deeming was wrong to have champagne with rally organisers: Southwick
Mr Southwick criticised Mrs Deeming for sitting on a couch and having “a little champagne” to celebrate with rally organiser Angela Jones, anti-trans rights activist Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull and former Liberal candidate Katherine Deves after the rally.
He also accused her of taking Ms Jones, who he claimed has known associations with white supremacists, “through the back of parliament”.
He pointed to a tweet Ms Jones posted, saying, “Nazis and women want to get rid of pedo filth, why don’t you?”
Mr Southwick expressed how offensive the tweet was to Jewish people.
He told Mrs Deeming it would be hard for her to “walk back” from her actions.
“Your friends have not denounced these Nazis – they have taken selfies with them,” he said.
“You took it to the steps of parliament which is very dangerous. How do you walk back from that?”
Mrs Deeming was told she would have to disown the women she celebrated with for “their views”.
“Can’t I just disown their views?” she asked.
Mr Pesutto said: “You can’t hang out with these people. This just kills us.”
He said the then-Andrews government now has “wind in its sails” and was going “to run with it”.
“They have been itching for something to clobber me with and this is it,” Mr Pesutto said.
“Nazism is like the most toxic acid that can run through any political party – and it is running through us.
“We could find Daniel Andrews robbing a 7-Eleven, but if you bring Katherine Deves down, everyone’s going to go, ‘Don’t care about that, Katherine Deves is in town’. That’s all it’s going to be about.”
Deeming invited to resign by Pesutto
As the meeting came to an end, Mrs Deeming was asked to step outside so they could speak.
After 20 minutes, Mrs Deeming was called back in, and told she would be removed from the party.
He said they could not take on anyone with links to “self-professed Nazis”.
“The damage is done - I am sorry it has come to this,” Mr Pesutto told her.
“It is not done personally. I have to think about the team first.
“The damage to our team and the prospects is too severe.”
He invited her to resign in the meantime if she wished, while he did the formal motion.
“Again, I am very sorry it has come to this,” he said.
“We did exhaust every aspect of the issues. We do not do this with any joy at all.”
Mrs Deeming said: “OK, thank you.”
Deeming ‘set upon’, lawyer says
Mrs Deeming’s lawyer, Ms Chrysanthou, said the notion given that this was a calm meeting was nonsense.
She said her client had been “set upon” and “bullied”.
“They are confusing her. They are changing the topic. They are changing the goal post,” she said, once the recording was finished being played in court.
“There is nothing that she can say to change their minds.
“Contrary to the evidence, their decision had already been made before this meeting.”
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