Deeming, Pesutto front court as defamation trial begins
A bombshell 70-minute recording of a Liberal leadership meeting held the day after Moira Deeming spoke at a women’s rally could cause massive headaches for John Pesutto.
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Exiled Liberal Moira Deeming has faced off against Opposition Leader John Pesutto as her highly anticipated defamation hearing got underway.
The hearing is set to run for three weeks in the Federal Court.
Scroll down for the latest updates
Who’s due to take the stand?
More than a dozen witnesses, including current and former Liberal MPs, political operatives and friends of ousted Liberal Moira Deeming will give evidence in her favour in her defamation battle against Opposition Leader John Pesutto.
Mrs Deeming’s husband Andrew Deeming, political operative Warren Mundine, Liberal MP Renee Heath, politician John Ruddock, David Hodgett MP, Joseph McCracken MP, former minister Ryan Smith and senior Liberal figure Kim Wells were named in the Federal Court as witnesses who would take the stand in the hearing over the next three weeks.
David Southwick MP and Georgie Crozier MP are also expected to take the stand.
Mrs Deeming claims Mr Pesutto defamed her by painting her a Nazi sympathiser after the ‘Let Women Speak’ rally she helped organise on March 18, 2023 was attended by white supremacists.
She was suspended then expelled from the Liberal Party two months later.
Bombshell evidence to be key to defamation case
A bombshell recording of a meeting of the Liberal leadership just 24 hours after ousted MP Moira Deeming spoke at a women’s rally attended by neo-Nazis will become key evidence in her defamation case against Opposition Leader John Pesutto.
The 11th-hour addition of the 70-minute recording to Mrs Deeming’s defamation battle against Mr Pesutto could cause massive headaches for the Opposition Leader.
Mrs Deeming’s barrister Sue Chrysanthou SC said the recording of the meeting about Mrs Deeming’s attendance at the Let Women Speak rally “contradicts … in very serious and direct ways … in ways that matter” evidence given to the court by the Liberal leadership.
“In substantial and significant ways, this recording contradicts them,” she said.
The leadership meeting, on March 19, was attended MPs Mr Pesutto, Matthew Bach, David Southwick, Georgie Crozier and director of communications Nick Johnston.
Mrs Deeming was later called into the meeting to discuss her fate.
Ms Chrysanthou said evidence from attendees about what was discussed at the meeting overwhelmingly suggested they intended to ask Mrs Deeming to put out a statement distancing herself from the rally and condemning the neo-Nazis in attendance.
But she told the court, “we say it’s clear at least in Mr Pesutto’s mind … he had decided to get rid of her.”
The barrister said Mr Pesutto had known about the audio recording “of the key meeting” since December but didn’t tell his lawyers about it.
“It’s quite extraordinary that Mr Pesutto didn’t mention in one of his affidavits that he knew there was a recording of this meeting given how important it is to the case,” she said.
“Why a person, a lawyer, a former shadow attorney general would put on an affidavit about something said at a meeting knowing there was a recording and not mention it, not provide it to his lawyers, it’s very strange conduct.”
The court heard the recording of the meeting would be played to the court this afternoon.
Before the meeting, a draft press release from Mr Pesutto stated that Mrs Deeming had decided to resign from the Parliamentary Liberal Party.
However, after the meeting, the press release was changed to expulsion.
Text messages ‘proof’ Pesutto planned to oust Deeming before meeting
Opposition Leader John Pesutto was advised to expel Moira Deeming from his party room hours after the rally by his now chief of staff, who warned he would never be elected to government with her as part of the team.
The claim was made in the Federal Court this morning where the high-stakes defamation trial between Mr Pesutto and Mrs Deeming begun with Sue Chrysanthou, SC, opening the case for Mrs Deeming.
She told the court Mrs Deeming came to be elected in November 2022 with good standing within the party, but said that all unravelled after she attended the now infamous Let Women Speak rally in March last year.
Text messages shown to the court revealed Mr Pesutto’s chief of staff, Louise Staley, was a central figure in the push to expel Mrs Deeming after reports about neo-Nazis at the rally were published in the media.
“You need to consider expelling her from the party room for consorting with Nazis,” Ms Staley wrote to Mr Pesutto the evening after the rally.
“You can’t have that link and be elected to government.”
Mr Pesutto responded: “Agree”.
Texts between Ms Staley and deputy Liberal leader, David Southwick, showed she had also contacted him about the issue.
Ms Chrysanthou said the texts were proof Mr Pesutto had made his mind up to force Mrs Deeming out of the party well before a meeting between her and his leadership team the following day, on March 19.
Pesutto went on ‘campaign of destruction’ against Deeming: Court
In opening the case, barrister Sue Chrysanthou SC, for Mrs Deeming, said “reputation is apparently in issue in this case”.
“Mr Pesutto comes to this court and asks Your Honour to find before he tarred her with the Nazi brush in March of last year she had a bad reputation,” she said.
“Well the evidence that is before Your Honour points overwhelmingly to the contrary, the objective evidence … Mr Pesutto’s own conduct and words in relation to Mrs Deeming prior to March 2023, the conduct and words of the Liberal Party … and countless witnesses … will give evidence of Mrs Deeming’s reputation prior to the 18th of March.”
Ms Chrysanthou said Mr Pesutto “went on a campaign of destruction against my client” after the March rally.
“We say Mr Pesutto knew what he was doing was not in the public interest,” she said.
“Political interests are not public interests.”
Federal Court judge David O’Callaghan opened the case at 10.15am with a comment about the apparent leak of hundreds of pages of private correspondence between Mrs Deeming and her contacts.
The material was published on the court’s public file on Friday afternoon.
His Honour said the court received an email from Mrs Deeming’s lawyers that an upload from Mr Pesutto’s side contained a live link to material that they ask to be immediately removed.
“It should go without saying,” His Honour said, that documents provided by either side to the court should be suitable for publication.
‘Awful’ neo-Nazis gatecrashed rally
Ms Chrysanthou said Mrs Deeming was in contact with Mr Pesutto before the rally and that he’d agreed to meet rally organiser and British activist Kellie-Jay Keen — a meeting that was suddenly cancelled “with no reason given”.
The barrister said “no-one in the leadership team warned Mrs Deeming” not to attend the rally on March 18, which she spoke at, was “attended by other MPS” and “women from diverse political perspectives”.
“The purpose of the rally was to let women speak,” Ms Chrysanthou said.
Ms Chrysanthou said before the rally started at 12.15pm that day, “a group of men, 20 or 30 (wearing) black … have a face-off with another group of men we call the socialists” before they walked towards the steps of Parliament and one of them gave a Nazi salute.
The men were caught on camera interrupting the Let Women Speak rally after an introduction by Ms Keen and during an acknowledgement of country, “not really a Nazi-like thing to do”, Ms Chrysanthou said.
“They’re not supporting the women who are trying to speak, they’re interfering … they’re doing the opposite of letting women speak, they’re stopping women speaking.”
Authorities were called, with Ms Chrysanthou stating Mrs Deeming “didn’t see any Nazi salute until after they were escorted off by police”.
“They were not a part of it at all, they were awful men in the vicinity and the only thing they did in relation to the rally was interfere with their own megaphone when the women were speaking,” she said.
Mrs Deeming did not leave the event, then spoke at the rally at 1.15pm.
She later told colleagues she saw the men but didn’t know if they were “Nazis or just idiots” and didn’t know if she had authority to issue a press statement.
She later posted a tweet about it.
Allegations Deeming to blame for neo-Nazis ‘nonsensical’
The court heard video footage of the rally would be played during the hearing, with attendees — including Andrew Deeming — to give evidence.
Ms Chrysanthou said those who attended and spoke at the rally considered it “a success”.
The barrister said no-one “could assert there was some sort of connection between these men and that rally of women … and these men and my client”.
“If there was a political opponent making this connection for his own political reasons it could have very easily been squashed like a bug by Mr Pesutto.”
The barrister said it was “incomprehensible that any person could think a group of men talking about pedophiles, doing the Nazi salute, could be laid at the feet of my client or the women who organised the rally”.
“The allegation my client is in any way blameworthy for these men … only has to be thought about for a few seconds to be considered to be nonsensical.”
She said the allegation was “so self-evidently absurd that any politician on any side of politics promoting it or repeating it” had to have an ulterior motive.
“Seriously, Nazis supporting Let Women Speak?” she asked.
‘Non-negotiable’ meeting start of bullying and harassment
At 11am the morning after the rally, Sunday March 19, barrister Ms Chrysanthou said Mrs Deeming was phoned by Georgie Crozier MP and asked to attend an urgent meeting with the leadership team “about everything that happened yesterday at the rally”.
But Mrs Deeming said she couldn’t get a babysitter for her four children.
She was told the meeting was “non negotiable”, that she had to attend whether she liked it or not.
Ms Chrysanthou said “nothing was said” that Mrs Deeming would be asked to resign, or that she faced expulsion.
The barrister said this was the start of “shocking bullying and harassment” of her client.
Pesutto’s media release painted Deeming ‘as a Nazi sympathiser’
A press release issued by Mr Pesutto after the leadership meeting that evening, on Sunday, March 19, moved to expel Mrs Deeming and, according to her barrister, “condem(ed) her as a Nazi sympathiser”.
“At our meeting I informed Mrs Deeming that I will move a motion at the next party room meeting to expel her as a member of the parliamentary Liberal Party as her position is untenable,” Mr Pesutto said in the 8.42pm release.
“This is not an issue about free speech but a member of the parliamentary party associating with people whose views are abhorrent to my values, the values of the Liberal Party and the wider community.”
Ms Chrysanthou said Mr Pesutto’s statement suggested her client “is a Nazi sympathiser, she agrees with Nazis, she associates with Nazis, and that is so despicable she has to go”.
The barrister said the statement was immediately reported by the mass media, and that Mr Pesutto was “liable for those re-publications”.
‘She’s associating with Nazis’: Pesutto’s radio claims in spotlight
The next day, Monday March 20, Mr Pesutto did a radio interview on Neil Mitchell’s 3AW program telling him, it’s “not about free speech”.
“The problem is Moira didn’t just turn up to this rally, she had helped organise and promote it with people who had known associations. It’s not about free speech, it’s about people whose values are not consistent with mine,” he said on the program.
Ms Chrysanthou said at this time, Mr Pesutto was told “absolutely that she did not” know anyone at the rally had Nazi associations.
“It’s very clear on the tape,” Ms Chrysanthou said of the leadership meeting the day earlier, a recording of which is expected to be played to the court.
Asked in the interview by Mr Mitchell if he accepted that organisers didn’t know Nazis would turn up to the rally, Mr Pesutto replied: “I’m not in a position to say that I accept that.”
“I know Moira’s not a Nazi but my point is she’s associating with people who are.”
Also on March 20, the court heard Mr Pesutto held a press conference at lunchtime and told journalists he’d taken steps to expel Mrs Deeming.
He said that was because she “attended the rally, stayed at the rally when Nazis attended and then celebrated with organisers of the rally, after the rally and the ugly scenes had occurred on the steps of this Parliament and the street before it.”
After the media conference, the court heard Mrs Deeming sent out a press release denouncing white supremacists.
Mr Pesutto also publicly released a notice he’d sent to Mrs Deeming to expel her.
Deeming told image ‘couldn’t be rehabilitated’
In a meeting of the Liberal party room on Tuesday, March 21 - three days after the rally - Mrs Deeming said “the leadership weren’t interested in hearing my side of the story”.
“I said from the beginning I denounced Nazis,” she said, according to minutes of the meeting, which were written by MP Renee Heath and tendered to the court.
“I denounced them twice on the day (at the rally) and I offered to do it again for the leadership but they said I couldn’t be rehabilitated.”
Mrs Deeming said the reason the leadership believed she couldn’t be rehabilitated was because she refused to denounce as Nazis Jacinta Price, Claire Chandler, Catherine Deves and Angela Jones, who was Jewish.
According to the minutes, Mrs Deeming told the party room she was “assaulted that day and I told the leadership and they all stayed completely silent and didn’t show any care for me at all”.
“I feel that no-one seems to care about that.”
The suspension ‘compromise’ and vote to expel
At a party meeting a week after the rally on March 27, a divided party room settled on a “compromise” to suspend Mrs Deeming for nine months.
Before the compromise, MPs addressed the meeting where Mr Pesutto called for Mrs Deeming to be expelled and said he “never would have put my leadership to this type of test unless I absolutely had to do it”.
“This is the first of many tough decisions we are going to have to make if we want to win,” he said, according to notes made by secretary Renee Heath.
A total of 16 votes would see Mrs Deeming gone, he said.
Other members of the leadership team, including Georgie Crozier and Matt Bach, called for support for the expulsion motion during March 27 meeting.
However, Bev McArthur MP called for others to dismiss the motion stating if she hadn’t been in Sydney, saying “I would have been there with Moira fighting for the rights of women”.
Kim Wells MP said he didn’t know if he was “sad or angry to have got to this point”.
“After the last loss I thought we were taking a new direction. Instead of shooting ourselves in the foot we are shooting ourselves in the head. We don’t respect everyone’s views. I thought that’s what the Liberal party was about. I cannot believe how badly this has been handled, John (Pesutto),” he said.
After the compromise decision was made by the party room, the media was informed.
Soon after, a request was made by Federal Opposition Leader Peter Dutton “not to do any more media”.
But ultimately, communication with the media continued, with the court hearing the party wanted to “have a good relationship with media, not with Dutton, we can fix him later”.
Two months later, the move to expel was re-enlivened, and Mrs Deeming was expelled after a vote.
Call for any other secret material
Mrs Deeming’s lawyers have called for David Southwick MP to hand over any other communications or recordings after it was revealed he made a secret tape of a crucial leadership meeting about Ms Deeming’s fate.
The Federal Court heard Mr Southwick made a mobile phone recording of the leadership meeting on March 19 — a day after a women’s rally attended by Mrs Deeming and gatecrashed by Neo-Nazis.
Mrs Deeming’s lawyers only learned of the recording last Monday, and say it’s crucial to their case in the defamation fight against Mr Pesutto.
Mrs Deeming’s lawyers applied to issue a subpoena on Mr Southwick, who made the secret recording, for any other communications between March 18, the day of the rally, and May 12, Mrs Deeming’s expulsion date.
“If there are other such documents, other such recordings, then they should come to light now, not later,” barrister Barry Dean, for Mrs Deeming, said.
The bombshell tape of a meeting of the Liberal leadership 24 hours after the contentious women’s rally will now be played to the court on Tuesday.
Mr Southwick is due to give evidence in the hearing at the beginning its third week.
Federal Court judge Justice David O’Callaghan will rule on the subpoena application in the next few days.
The hearing was adjourned until Tuesday.
Legal fight no distraction, Pesutto says
Outside court, Mr Pesutto denied he was distracted by the defamation action in his fight against the Labor Government.
“Not at all,” he told journalists.
Both Mr Southwick and Ms Crozier — who are due to give evidence — refused to comment on the case while it was before the courts.
But Mr Southwick said the Liberal Party was focused on holding the government to account.
“We have huge problems here in this state,” he said.
“We are focused on doing our jobs and that’s what we’ll be doing.”
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