Hamish McLachlan: How Kate Ceberano shook off her Covid depression

Kate Ceberano opens up on feeling “completely pointless” during Covid, serenading John Farnham and who she would share a stage with if she could only do one more gig.

Kate Ceberano has had 15 top 40 singles over a 40 year career.

I always liked listening to Kate Ceberano growing up. I always thought she would be cool to meet.

I met her, and I was right.

She has been a constant in the Australian music scene for as long as I can remember.

She has just released a new album that she has recorded with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra.

We spoke about Joni Mitchell, losing purpose, karate, Beethoven, Bob Marley, Prince, one last gig and mothering.

HM: “My Life as a Symphony” is really, really awesome.

KC: I love that you feel that way! I’m actually sitting here doing media and for the first time in my life it’s not feeling exhausting! I’m really proud of it. It’s taken me four years to make this record and there was lots of deliberation. Covid came between me and the Symphony. They did their work, and the world changed and then I had to wait. I can actually listen to the record, and I’m happy with it, so I think that’s proof that it’s OK.

HM: Whose idea was The Melbourne Symphony Orchestra and Kate Ceberano together, redoing your songs?

KC: It happened because I met this kid who I really love, an arranger who’s one of those kids who are just born old, and I worked with him. He worked with James Morrison, he was an artistic director for James Morrison’s Academy, and he worked with the Lincoln Center in New York. He’s just a young man in his twenties and could handle all of this high level art. He does the arrangements for Cat Empire and The Bamboos. I called him over to the house and I said, “I want to do something that makes me feel the same way as when I first heard Joni Mitchell sing “Both Sides Now” in the movie “Love Actually”. 40 years after the recording, her voice has changed, she’s changed, but you’re still sitting there in the cinema listening to this track going “I want that experience. I want to feel the sound of what four decades can do to a person and their voice.” And he said, “I can do that”, and I said, “Well great, you’ve got the gig!”

Kate Ceberano recorded her new album with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra.

HM: What did “Love Actually” make you feel when you were listening to Joni Mitchell?

KC: It made me feel that we live imperfect lives, right? And we change ourselves. We always try to repair the things we’ve broken, or we try to redesign the house we live in, ourselves. Every decade it’s a home improvement. It’s a whole overhaul every decade. I felt happy that we can become more brilliant as we get older. Still be worthy.

HM: You battled with self-worth during Covid didn’t you?

KC: Yes, I did. Through Covid, I think I felt like I was completely pointless. I felt I had nothing I could do that was of value to anyone or for anyone. All my life I’ve been able to make a person sing along, make Friday night out better. I’ve made them feel that their weddings were important and made people feel better through drought and fire. During Covid, I was just felt completely useless. I just thought that I better start to decide where I want to see myself coming out of Covid. What value am I going to have? “Come on, get busy!”. So I ran a television show from inside our home. Every Friday night I just reached out to people during Covid and I said, “Here you go! Here’s a concert whether you want it or not! Here’s music to keep you going!” Then there was me making songs and music, and one thing led to the other. I just kept doing it.

I felt like I was completely pointless

HM: Your early life was surrounded by brothers and boys and karate. How did you find out that you could sing among all of that?

KC: I sung as a reaction against martial arts, because my Father, is the highest rank of his style in the world.

HM: Tino’s a gun?

KC: Yeah, he’s a superstar. Growing up it was like “enter the dragon” you know that scene with the rice paddies full of men in white gi’s (karate uniforms). My mum, she was one of maybe 5 women in the country who were black belts in martial arts. I just didn’t love the sound of her fighting. At that age, I couldn’t understand the concept of self-defence. I just thought someone’s attacking my mother. So I never did karate. I wanted to be a dancer and sing. It was pretty much a counter reaction. I didn’t know I was going to be a singer, but when the first person asked if I could sing, I just bullshitted and said “Yeah!” And I got the gig.

HM: Where was the first time that you got up in front of a big audience and felt what it is you’ve been craving ever since?

KC: The very first time I got up in front of an audience was at the Doncaster Pub. I was 14 and there were a couple of backpackers that were staying at our house, and one of them was a musician, and he had a Saturday gig. I got up and sang with him.

Kate Ceberano always knew she would so something creative.

HM: Did it feel good?

KC: Superb. You remember that hammering of your heart in your throat? When it just smashes your throat and your body wants to flee from the scene. That was the feeling. But I was in love — 14 years old, singing a Jimmy cliff song with this backpacker! Honestly, it was one of the highest of highs. It was so intoxicating and I’ll never forget it because I expect it from every gig that I do now, and if it’s not there, I’m concerned.

HM: Why does it still feel like that do you think?

KC: I think it’s from the opportunity to be able to do something in real time that requires skill, but you have to be a bit courageous to do it. You’ve got to have all these elements within you, and then you’ve got to be able to bring them to life all at once for the pay-off at the end. You can come away saying “I did that, and it was everything I hoped it could be.”

HM: I’ve got an 10 year old who had to speak at the school assembly a few weeks ago. She was terrified. She asked me “Do you get scared anymore?” I said, “Not scared, but I get excited about what’s ahead because it’s completely uncertain”. She said, “So what happens if you make a mistake?” I said, “I know I’ll make a mistake, but being imperfect is a part of life.” So she rolled with that. I said to her that night, “How did you feel?” She said, “I didn’t want to stop!” That’s what it is. That’s why you’re still going, Mick’s still going, the Rolling Stones will never end. It’s this amazing ability to make people feel something, and in turn, you feel too.

I’ve never loved recording — live music is more real

KC: Definitely! Beethoven said it in that beautiful film, “Immortal Beloved”, what you’re ideally trying to do is introduce a person to an experience that you’re having. By listening to you, they’re feeling exactly what you were feeling when you either authored the piece or you spoke the words, or you stood there on the stage. It’s human to wish to share that experience. It’s human to make another person want to feel that, because when you know that another person’s feeling it, it’s proof that you exist.

HM: If you’re someone who’s craving nourishment and purpose, then that’s what you’re looking for, proof that you exist.

KC: It’s exactly what you’re doing. It’s one of the reasons I’ve never loved recording, I’ve never loved the process of recording, because it’s just that little bit disingenuous from the moment of where you’re seeing a person in the audience and that person has provoked a reaction from you. I love live performing because the good, bad and the ugly come from it. Live music is more real.

HM: 15 top 40 singles. Do you know when you’ve written a hit? Or have you got no idea

KC: When I wrote ‘Pash’, I knew it had this ‘thing’. ‘Bedroom Eyes’ had it as well. I didn’t write Bedroom Eyes, but I knew it had it. I couldn’t stand the title of Bedroom Eyes, but it was like, “F--k this song’s a f--king hit. I’m gonna have to record it!” It was irresistible. Sure enough it was like triple Platinum and the highest selling single that year. It was mental. When Pash came out, I had the greatest compliment where I took it and surveyed it among different types of people. Not people who were fans, but just regular people. No one knew that it was me who wrote it, or was singing. So it was like a triumph. I’ve sort of killed off the Kate Ceberano that that was, and had created this new piece all standalone on its own. It was really powerful.

Ceberano performs with John Farnham during Jesus Christ Superstar.

HM: When you wrote ‘Brave’ with Phil, your brother, how do you collaborate so that you get the outcome that’s right and all the ego gets left behind.

KC: My brother has always been like the right side of my left brain when we’ve been writing together. We oscillate from left to right brain depending on what the circumstances are, and how much alcohol the left side of the brain has had! I’d like to think that my brother, we are twins in a way. When we were collaborating on that track, we were in the midst of a bit of a shit fight because there was this very, very famous A&R guy in England. Basically he worked with the Stones and he worked with all these big bands and he was very expensive. That’s all we knew. He’s walking up and down in front of the console and he’s just going, “This is not the way we make hit records!” And to be honest with you, Phil and I were just f--king confused. We didn’t understand what that meant. We were like, is there some method to making hit records that’s different from making music? Phil and I were just making music. And they become hits because of some miracle, which I still haven’t actually worked out. Phil and I just escaped into the studio together and I was mucking around with some chords and he got his guitar out. As far as word for word who wrote what, how, what chords were played, I couldn’t even recall. It’s a bit the way that Keith works with Mick – they just jam and then it looks like they’re looking into space at the same spot, and in that spot, something happens. So that’s how I feel. I just saw the movie ‘Air’ last night. Have you seen it?

HM: I said to my kids this morning we’re going to see it on Sunday. Affleck and Damon I think are like you and Phil.

KC: That’s exactly what I was going to say. And also an understanding that we are looking and seeing the same thing at the same time.

HM: If you hadn’t become the singer and the brilliant musician, what were the options? What interested you?

I’ve never had any cause to feel anything but safe and loved

KC: I have to be honest, I wasn’t an academic! I was a Flunky at school. They probably would’ve issued labels for me at the time, but back then in the early eighties, late seventies, it wasn’t a thing. I really wanted to be good at it – I just couldn’t find a way to get passionate about it in the same way that I got passionate about art. So, to answer your question, what would I have become if I hadn’t got into music? I probably would’ve done something that had to do with fashion design.

HM: Something creative? Like making quilts!

KC: Yeah, cool, you’ve done your research! I make quilts, but not arts and crafts quilts. I embroider all song lyrics and stuff all over them.

HM: Cool quilts!

KC: Yes, cool quilts! The feeling I have about them is that they’re legacy quilts. They’re the thing that you’d most want your family to have after you’ve gone.

HM: The daughter continues to stay warm under the quilt long after you’re gone!

KC: Yeah. You wrap your family when a child is born, you take them to picnics, you throw them on the ground. They’re an object which the whole family has had use of forever. And I’m all about that.

Ceberano (middle) with husband Lee Rogers and daughter Gypsy Rogers.

HM: On family – are you and your husband Lee as beautifully in love and as happy as you appear?

KC: That’s cute! I think that the simple answer is yes. He and I have been married for 28 years, and I think that the simple truth is he’s just a really simple, kind person. And I rate and love that. I’ve never had any cause to feel anything but safe and loved. He is just very simple, not complex. His father was a classic Sydney beaches, old man of the sea, fisherman, lifesaver. The mother and father were both stewards on airlines. In fact they were on the first Qantas flight to Rome, the first International Qantas flight. They’re just that kind of old, steady Sydney people, and I’m just a f--king crazy Melbourne arts bitch, and one sort of serves the other! We just manage it well. Not everyone is able to have quite the life as we’ve had together and I’m very grateful for it.

HM: I was speaking to a mate the other day talking about marriage, and we were talking about how it’s important that you walk side-by-side together, and neither of wants to be walking in front of the other, or is resentful when the other is walking in front of the other. Because at times in your career, one’s ahead of the other, and one falls behind a bit. But it’s always, let’s walk side-by-side.

KC: That’s amazing. Have I met your wife?

HM: Sophie? I don’t think so.

KC: Because it sounds like you guys have been doing this well together for quite a while. And I really like you, you know that! We’ve had some good chats in the wings, just about to go onto stage. I think we are both sort of show ponies, right? And I’m all good for that. I recognise a bird of a feather. I imagine that Sophie must be a bit like my husband in that she’s perfectly calm within herself, and about who she is and what she does.

HM: I think that’s the key piece, right?

John Farnham’s a rare person — you talk about selflessness!

KC: Exactly. He’s never once wished to get attention or been worried that I get attention. That is a very uncommon coupling out there. So good on you and good on me!

HM: You found the right guy! What’s the hardest thing about being a parent or a mother?

KC: Walking around, heart open and exposed for everyone to see is hard. I will always put Gypsy first, right or wrong, which is what a parent does. There’s times when they’ll shock you, and you are just as accepting that they are themselves! There’s a point where you have to just stop assisting and stop hand holding and let the person walk and talk for themselves!

Gypsy understands the drill because she’s been around this kind of lifestyle all of her life. Now she’s dipping her toe into music, she’s a singer songwriter. She’s quite a different style to me. The other day I was recording Brave, – the version for this album – in the same studio where I recorded it 30 years ago, and Gypsy was singing backing vocals and I turned around over my shoulder to see her singing with me, and I have to say, I got a bit emotional!

HM: That’s really cool. You’ve sung at over 8,000 live performances. If you could go back and relive one that made you feel whatever it was that you felt and you want to feel it again. Where do you end up?

KC: Standing on a 20 foot platform looking at John Farnham’s face across an orchestra as I was singing to him during Jesus Christ Superstar. It was a very intimate experience, even though we were surrounded by 18,000 people. I was singing to him and for the purpose of the performance, we are in love and I’m offering him help and solace and comfort. His face, oh mate, just f--king amazing. And every night for a hundred shows, he never failed to show up for me in that moment. He’s a rare person. You talk about selflessness! Each night there’d be 2000 people waiting for photographs with him, and he, with such perfect generosity, would stand for two hours after every show and look after them all!

Ceberano in 1999.

HM: Who’s the most talented or the most brilliant musician you’ve ever seen or heard or observed?

KC: Wow, that’s a big call. I’ve been around some pretty amazing humans. I would have to say Prince. I was actually pregnant, very heavily pregnant. It was the last show I was probably going to get to go to see live before giving birth. So it was really close. He was playing at Rod Laver, but there was a special club date for him and Maceo Parker that’s playing in Melbourne. There were only about 60-100 people in the room. I was so pregnant, and I was standing in his way to get on stage, like physically he couldn’t get by me and onto the stage! He wrapped his arms around my belly as he passed to give me a moment of his time. Then he went on to slay. The guy was exemplary at every level, as a human, as a communicator, as a musician. I felt like I’d really been touched by someone very important. Prince. He’s it. He ticks every box.

HM: I was looking at words that have been used to describe you through various people, Hugh Jackman, James Reyne, and Jimmy Barnes. These were the words that kept coming up – kind, outspoken, generous, enthusiastic, hugely talented, extraordinary performer, passionate. Which of those do you hope that Gypsy takes forward?

KC: Kindness in the end is what lasts forever, if you can harvest that. Everything is transient. Talent is transient, beauty is transient, any of those other things. But if you can harvest kindness, well you are onto something, aren’t you? If she could earn over a lifetime what James Reyne gave me, – because James is such a f--king star, and I’ve just had this massive crush my whole life. You probably know – he is such a broad spectrum of a human. How he thinks – he’s very literary. He called me a Renaissance woman! And I was like “Woah, I’ll take that!” Coming from him, that’s really sexy.

HM: It’s funny, we have four rules in our house. Be kind, be kind, be kind, and then rule four is refer to rule one through three!

KC: Well it’s a choice, isn’t it? You can be a prick one minute, and the next minute change your mind. Be kind. All the time.

HM: One last gig. Who are you performing with and where are you?

KC: I would do a gig with my brother at Bubba’s Hamburgers in Kauai. We would have the The Brothers Cazimero, who are a very famous Hawaiian family of musicians. We would have Don Ho, and Elvis could sit in if he wanted, but it’s essentially a Phil and Kate show!

HM: And Prince is in the audience, he puts his hands up, says, “Can I just play one with you?”

KC: And we say “Oh, if you must!”

“My Life is a Symphony” is out now.