Tanya Hosch: the AFL leader of a mission for cultural change

TANYA Hosch is the General Manager of Inclusion and Social Policy for the AFL. It is a complex title for a complex job. Hamish McLachlan caught up with Tanya ahead of the AFL’s Indigenous Round.

AFL General Manager Inclusion and Social Policy Tanya Hosch. Picture: Michael Willson/Getty

TANYA Hosch is the General Manager of Inclusion and Social Policy for the AFL. It is a complex title for a complex job. It’s a position that covers the issues surrounding racism, gender and sexuality, among others, in our game. I spoke with Tanya ahead of Indigenous Round. We talked about the issues she faces in her role, her history of dealing with racism on a personal front, the ground that has been made up, and the challenges ahead for us all on many fronts.

HM: The General Manager of Inclusion and Social policy at the AFL — big title. What is the role, exactly?

TH: My role is to give advice around policy relating to issues including Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, multicultural communities, gender, sexuality, transgender.

HM: That sounds like it would be complicated.

TH: (laughs) Well, it’s about just trying to make sure that this game responds to those issues well, so everyone feels included and can participate in this great game.

HM: Is it a new role?

TH: It is a new role; it hasn’t existed before. It means I’m the first indigenous person ever on the AFL executive.

HM: That in itself is significant — well done.

TH: Yeah, it is I guess. I was the second woman too, so yeah. It was a big deal!

HM: Are you a footy head?

TH: Not in the way that a lot of my colleagues are, but I’ve always followed footy. When I was growing up, it’s where I saw blackfellas celebrated, and cheered on. It’s the reason I fell in love with the game.

HM: That for you, back then, was unique?

TH: It was. That was the only time you ever really saw it. That was something I connected with, and it was when I was with my father. He and I used to watch the Magarey Medal together and the Brownlow together; he used to take me to the footy. It’s not that long ago that my father passed away — before I started this job, sadly. He would have been very excited that I came to work at the AFL.

HM: So when Cathy Freeman wins gold, in Sydney on the world stage, it’s more than just an Australian winning a gold medal?

TH: Yeah, it is. It just makes you proud to see an indigenous Australian succeed at the highest level, and then have Australians be excited by that.

Lance 'Buddy' Franklin at Barangaroo in Sydney with the Aboriginal flag ahead of this week’s AFL Indigenous Round. Picture. Phil Hillyard

HM: You are indigenous yourself. What is the most complicated part of being an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander living in Australia in 2017?

TH: I think it is just trying to have other Australians understand life from our perspective. When that’s understood a little better, you’ve got a better opportunity to have the conversations you need to have about making things different, and better, so that we are able to be included as we are, with the status of being the First Australians. Those conversations need to take place at every level of society, and that’s a difficult thing to do when people are busy dealing with their own struggles and their own lives and, I suppose, having an inconsistency of political will when addressing some of these issues. It’s about helping people understand how frustrating it is, and how emotionally wearing it is, when you’re surrounded by enormous problems you’re seeing a community face every day. It’s about trying to deal with those practical issues, as well as the structural and institutional issues that still drives disadvantage.

HM: You’ve said getting Australians to understand life from your perspective — what is the biggest misunderstanding, or misconception?

TH: I think there’s an enormous amount of confusion about exactly who Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are. We’re not one homogenous group, we’re not all the same; there’s enormous diversity among the cultural groups. That means there’s a lot of richness with that culturally, but Australians still don’t understand what that means and what it looks like. There would still be a lot of Australians that have never met an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander person, so they wouldn’t have their own direct experience. I think there’s still a lot of people that feel that a lot of the problems that communities are facing are of their own making, and not understanding the history and the sorts of interventions that have occurred, that have either made conditions worse or haven’t been successful.

HM: Do you think people aren’t interested, or feel awkward about having the conversation regarding race and racism?

TH: I think people disengage on the issue because it feels a bit too hard, and I do think people often feel uncomfortable having conversations about racism. It isn’t easy, and sadly that makes it all a little trickier. As an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, if you’re asked to come to the table and have a conversation, but then you’re not able to talk freely about your experience, and you’re always holding back to assist the comfort of the other people, then it doesn’t really make for a very open and honest conversation.

HM: I thought racism might come up as a subject today, so I looked up its definition. It’s defined as “prejudice, discrimination or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior”. What’s your definition?

TH: That is perfect, really.

HM: I am probably going to ask a lot of very naive questions today — but who first thought their race was superior to another?

TH: I have no idea. I imagine Darwinism had a bit to do with it. If you’re brought up to believe that’s the case … then it becomes a natural thought, doesn’t it? The thought that because your skin is a different colour, means that you are superior, does seem off. The thought that because you had a different-coloured skin, or a different heritage, that it means that your brain is smaller, or that the way that others choose to live and their cultural differences makes you inferior. If that becomes ingrained in your belief structure, then you pass that on. From there, it doesn’t always become a conscious thing. I am not sure who had the first racist thought — but has been with us since the beginning of the first cross-cultural interactions.

HM: My wife and I have discussed this. Everyone comes into the world knowing nothing. Everyone’s thinking is shaped somehow. From your learnings, is it most influenced by the home environment, pre-teenage years, school? What most profoundly shapes sexist, racist, or homophobic thoughts?

TH: I think it is the collective. It is what you learn in society, from all your influencers and touch points. You could come from a home that doesn’t hold strong views on any of these issues, but there’s certainly lots of signals that you’d pick up on in the media, or in society generally, that would suggest that this discriminatory way of thinking is normal, and acceptable. There’s still lots of signals in our society that suggests that. It can also come as a result of your education. Once upon a time there was barely any content around Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in school curriculum, and the content that did exist was inaccurate and presented in a racist way. That can be another way it’s reinforced. Dealing with it at every level is important.

St Kilda player Nicky Winmar points to his skin in response to a racist taunt from the crowd.

HM: How do we create the most suitable environment to shape the best thinking?

TH: You can’t control what happens in people’s home, but you can make sure that our structures and societies do deal properly with these issues. Political leadership is really important as well. Even though people speak poorly of politicians, we still pay a lot of attention to them. Anyone in a position of leadership, or who has a loud and prominent public voice, has a chance to influence the way that people hear messages about these issues. There’s a lot of responsibility with that.

HM: How often does someone like myself unintentionally make a racist comment? How often would you hear a comment that makes you think, “that’s just plain racist?”

TH: I live a pretty privileged life myself now.

H M: Meaning?

TH: Meaning that I tend to be in environments where I’m safe and comfortable. Going through school, and being younger where you have less control of your environment, I would have heard or overheard a racist comment most days. I still do often see or experience racism but in more subtle ways generally, the casual racism is more common that overt in my life these days.

HM: Are we making progress?

TH: It depends which day you ask me, to be honest.

HM: Sometimes you’re disillusioned and disheartened, and sometimes you think we’re going well?

TH: Yeah … pretty much. You have moments where you see the fruits of someone’s work that makes a massive change for a group of people, and you are really buoyed. That is real success, and that’s always encouraging, because it shows that the hard work and taking a stand can amount to something that changes the way people live. That encourages a lot of people that do this kind of work. Then there are other days where you just think, “I don’t think anyone is ever going to hear or understand what I’m saying, or take it seriously”, and then you start to wonder whether there’s any good that will come of it.

HM: I remember when we played sport at school, our team would refer to our Italian opponents as “wogs”, not maliciously, but just in passing, conversationally almost. Looking back, it was racism through ignorance as much as anything. That’s only 20 years ago now — I’m ashamed to even bring it up.

TH: I think there’s plenty of people who are more confident to take up opportunities to address or acknowledge their mistakes, and are looking to be supporters around these sorts of things. There’s still plenty of people who don’t like to think twice, and don’t like to be challenged about it if they do make a mistake. I like to think that we shouldn’t define anyone by their worst moment; people make mistakes, and that doesn’t mean they should be defined a racist for the rest of their life. But if you can’t have the conversation about it, and you’re not prepared to think about it and be accountable for it, then that suggests to me that you’re not open to learning.

HM: It’s hard to believe now.

TH: The thing about this is that we’re all going to have to work on it together, and if we’re going to make serious progress, then we’re going to have to stay at the table, and finish the discussion. Really, it’s all about having respectful relationships, and it’s not just about race, it can happen in all sorts of situations. If you want to have a good relationship with someone, then that’s usually based on mutual respect.

HM: Is it possible to clumsily make a racist comment, but not be racist, or make a homophobic comment, and not be homophobic?

TH: I think so, absolutely. I know people who have made racist comments who I don’t believe are racist people at all. The question then is: OK, where did that come from? That’s the stuff that comes out of the environment we’re in, and it’s in the air we breathe. It’s a constant learning, and that doesn’t mean that you have to be defined by that. It means that you’ve either picked it up from somewhere, or you weren’t necessarily aware of the racist connotation inherent in what you’ve just said. From there you’ve got to understand it, be accountable for it, apologise and not do it again. That’s all you can ask of someone. There are still people who are staunchly racist, and almost proud of that, and they look for opportunities to demonstrate their racist views through their actions and behaviours.

HM: I’m sure we will get negative comments at the bottom of this article from those who say whatever they feel like saying. That’s the world we live in, and you’d be used to that. When you walk into a room, as a Torres Strait Islander, do you feel you are being judged by default?

TH: Sometimes, yes.

The 2017 AFL Captains pose for a group shot. Picture: Michael Willson

HM: Purely because of the colour of your skin?

TH: Yep, but it’s not just about skin colour, it’s about cultural differences and beliefs about what your politics will be, whether you are considered valuable despite your differences. There are also issues about gender. There is an intersectioanlity and sometimes both of these things can be in play at the same time.

HM: Which is more disconcerting to you in 2017?

TH: They both are, but my emotional reaction will be stronger when it’s race rather than gender, because it connects me back to the racism I experienced as a child.

HM: What did you experience as a child, in terms of racism?

TH: Being teased at school, and being excluded. I went to a public school, and there weren’t a lot of non-white people at the school when I was there. I was definitely a target.

HM: What did you do to overcome it?

TH: I survived by having good social skills, and being able to make a strong group of friends. That’s where I found my sanctuary, by burying myself among a tight-knit group of friends. I experienced racism all through my education, and it was awful, and lonely, and those experiences stay with you. It’s had a significant impact on my inner confidence and self-esteem.

HM: The language around Indigenous Round is tricky. Am I right in saying that some Aboriginals don’t like to be referred to as “indigenous”?

TH: There are definitely a lot of people that prefer not to be referred to as indigenous, as there’s indigenous people all around the world, not just in Australia. The sense is that the term can undermine our status as the First Australians. I think indigenous is an accepted term, generally speaking, but I will typically use the language Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander myself because it’s the broadest, most appropriate way.

HM: It’s sort of tricky for a commentator to be talking about Indigenous Round!

TH:(laughs) You’re not offending people, I don’t think, but there will be people that perhaps might roll their eyes. We might not call it Indigenous Round in the future — it might just be called the Sir Doug Nicholls Round next year.

HM: OK then. You are a Torres Strait Islander. You call yourself, and I’ve heard you refer to others, as a “blackfella”. Do you call other Aboriginals or Torres Strait Islanders blackfellas?

TH: Amongst a lot of my friends and family, that’s the case, that’s often how we refer to each other, absolutely.

HM: This comes from my huge ignorance, so bear with me, but could a white fella call an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander that under any circumstances?

TH: Well that would be totally a relationship thing. If you’ve got a good relationship with an indigenous Australian, and you can share that familiarity and comfort, then that’s OK. It’s really about the reciprocity and engagement, and the kind of relationship you have.

Cyril Rioli kicks at goal in a match against the Western Bulldogs. Picture: Michael Klein

HM: So if an Aboriginal calls a white Australian a “whitefella”, could that be deemed racist?

TH: No.

HM: Because?

TH: Because it’s not coming with a connotation that says white people are inferior. Whereas once upon a time, “blackfella” was used by non-indigenous people in a derogatory sense.

HM: Got it.

TH: Yeah, it’s tricky. It is tonal, and it’s really about the relationship between those in the conversation.

HM: RECOGNISE. It’s a movement to recognise Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in the Australian Constitution, and by doing that ensuring there’s no place in the constitution for racial discrimination. You worked at RECOGNISE: who instigated the movement?

TH: It goes back a couple of parliaments ago now. John Howard had originally made an attempt. When we had the referendum on the republic, it was Senator Aden Ridgeway who suggested that we recognise Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in the preamble that was being proposed. That failed, and after that time John Howard did say that he believed we should have recognition in the constitution, because we’re currently not even mentioned in the document. In the following parliament, Julia Gillard put together an expert panel to have a look at the issue. That was to work out that if we were to make changes to the constitution, what changes would we make to recognise First Australians in it. The expert panel consulted for a year, did an enormous amount of work, and came up with a range of recommendations. One of the recommendations was to set up a public awareness campaign, which is what RECOGNISE is. I was originally recruited as the deputy campaign director, and then became the joint campaign director a couple of years into the process.

HM: So do you think the lack of reference to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in the constitution is an oversight, or more than that?

TH: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people weren’t involved in the conversations that led to our constitution being forged. There was a belief at the time that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people at the time would probably die out, and hence there wasn’t any need to accommodate us in that way.

HM: Do you think it will be changed in the future?

TH: I sincerely hope so. There’s tens of thousands of Australians that are working on it.

HM: What’s the hesitation from the politicians?

TH: Well, you need to have agreement on what the changes will be, and it’s fair to say that the process we’re going through at the moment, where Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and other Australians have got an opportunity to say precisely what changes they want — you need to find some point of agreement on that from the politicians in Canberra that will pass the legislation, to determine what we all vote on, and you also need the support of all the states and territories. Obviously, it’s really important that the majority of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are in agreement about what those changes are. That’s a big ask, and it’s a lot of work to get that agreement. Right throughout this process, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have made it very clear that they want to see substantial change, not just the symbolic changes alone, which would include the recognition piece. There are pieces in our constitution at the moment which still allow for race discrimination; we’re one of the few constitutions in the world not to have antiracial discrimination protection, and there are a number of people who feel very strongly about maintaining the constitution as it is, who don’t support changing it at all for any reason. There are other people who feel very strongly about not changing the legal construct too much. Adding something about race protection is not supported by everyone.

HM: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders became entitled to vote in 1962, nationally. Other states had addressed that earlier. On what basis were you not allowed to vote before then?

TH: In 1902 there was federal legislation that specifically denied Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples the right to vote.

HM: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders were taxpayers, but had no vote?

TH: That’s right.

HM: What percentage of Australians are indigenous?

TH: It’s about 3 per cent at the moment.

HM: And what percentage of the Australian Football League lists are made up of indigenous players?

TH: It’s almost 11 per cent.

Buddy Franklin celebrates during the match between Sydney Swans v GWS Giants at SCG. Picture: Jeremy Piper

HM: What are the biggest issues arising in communities in Australia now for Aboriginals?

TH: Well, there’s still a lot of communities that are living in poverty.

HM: Because?

TH: That’s an excellent question, and a very complex one. There are many reasons. Low levels of educational and training, very little local economic opportunities — which both lead to few employment opportunities — and racism still plays a part. The cost of living in those remote communities is excessively high, particularly if you look at the cost of food. All of these things are obviously linked; you can’t just address one issue and assume everything else will fix up. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people consistently say they want the right to make decisions about their own lives, and have greater control over that decision making — socially, culturally, politically, economically. We refer to it as self-determination.

HM: Does sledging come under the auspices of General Manager of Inclusion and Social Policy?

TH: It depends what it is, but if it’s relating to race, religion, gender or disability, then I would be consulted on that.

HM: From your discussions with the indigenous playing group, where are we at on racial slurs?

TH: Over 20 years ago the AFL instituted a race and religious vilification policy — the first sporting code in the world to do it. We’re not getting reports of racial sledging on the ground right now; we do sadly hear about it being reported from the stands. That tells us that that change and that policy approach worked. It’s because of the leaders of the past who stood up and said it was unacceptable. Now, we need to think about all the other types of vilification that are unacceptable. Maybe we need to consider taking a similar approach to these things. I think of a match like a workplace, and it’s an environment where you want to take your family, where you want to take your kids. Would you want your kids to think it’s OK to say that sort of stuff, where in the heat of battle, people might say things that they wouldn’t in another context?

HM: Sexuality is part of your remit. Do you think we are far away from seeing an AFL footballer come out?

TH: I hope so. I think that being the first will be a huge thing. Maybe there’ll be a few who decide to come out together, and hence the burden gets shared. It’s not something we should create any pressure about, but just do everything we can to make it clear that it will be a safe environment when someone, or some men, do. We should try not to overstate that, and just accept that there is diversity in the game around sexuality. Statistically, it’s impossible for there not to be.

HM: Why do you think it has been, seemingly, easier for AFLW players to be so open and comfortable and, as yet, no AFL players have come out?

TH: I don’t know. It would be worth asking some of those women. I imagine if a number of those women were already in same-sex relationships before AFLW started, then they couldn’t suddenly not be. I guess, from a standing start, it was already a part of who they were, and therefore no one was making a huge deal about it.

HM: Good point. Part of your role effectively is to challenge the status quo, educate and, a lot of the time, I assume, make a lot of people feel uncomfortable?

TH: Yeah, it does have elements, and all of those things seem to be part of it. My job is to challenge the organisation, and therefore make it a bit more vulnerable around some of these things. Asking people to do things differently, asking people to think about things they haven’t thought about before, because it wasn’t their job.

HM: And are people thinking about things differently?

TH: Yeah. I’m feeling well supported. It’s not like I’m dealing with a lot of resistance. It’s just about realising that, OK, if we do that, then what does that mean? How does the system then absorb that change? What will the implications of it be? It’s about asking people to think that through, and we’ve got to do it collectively. I can only be successful if other people implement the policy changes I’m suggesting. A lot of my work is about working with people, and hopefully being able to leverage their influence and their decision-making power. It will be them that implement the change.

HM: You’ve got a really tricky role.

TH: There’s definitely a lot of complexity, but at the end of the day, my job’s about people. I hope I can make a difference, in a positive way, for people.