George Pell testifies from Rome for abuse royal commission: day two
Survivors say they can’t believe a man of such intelligence was unaware of a paedophile priest | TODAY’S KEY POINTS
Cardinal George Pell has been giving evidence to the royal commission for the second day about what he knew of sexual abuse by paedophile priests and brothers in Victoria in the 1970s. The cardinal, who is now the Vatican’s finance chief, was too ill to return to Australia for questioning and is testifying via videolink from the Hotel Quirinale in Rome in front of a group of survivors from Ballarat.
Here’s how yesterday unfolded. Updates on today’s hearing from Jacquelin Magnay in Rome and John Lyons and Dan Box at The Royal Commission in Sydney, are below.
All times AEST
1.45pm: ‘Of course I told truth’
George Pell has finished his testimony for the day and left the Hotel Quirinale, where he was asked by reporters if he had told the truth. He replied: “of course I did’’.
But the Ballarat survivors group believes the Cardinal is “throwing people under the bus’’, specifically mentioning Bishop Mulkearns who knew of the paedophilia activities of Gerard Ridsdale for decades.
Ridsdale’s nephew, David Ridsdale, said outside the hotel: “I think he threw a whole lot of people under the bus.”
Another survivor Phillip Nagle added: “Bishop Mulkearns is dying and I think somebody has to take the blame and it looks like it will be him.”
David Ridsdale says George Pell has thrown Bishop Mulkearns under the bus to protect his own reputation.
â Jacquelin Magnay (@jacquelinmagnay) March 1, 2016
11.57am: Hearing adjourned, returning 8am tomorrow.
MY VERDICT as Day 2 adjourns: Yesterday George Pell did well. Today was a legal and PR disaster for him @australian @Raf_Epstein @Colvinius
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) March 1, 2016
11.28: Pell’s account ‘unbelievable’
Child sex abuse survivors say it’s unbelievable a man of Cardinal Pell’s intelligence was unaware of a paedophile priest’s offending when two Victorian communities and local clergy knew about it.
The cardinal told the commission that while he was on a Ballarat diocese committee that advised on the transfers of priests he was never told of the offending of paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale in the 1970s.
His nephew David Ridsdale, who was sexually abused by his uncle, is among a group of survivors hearing the cardinal’s evidence in Rome and told reporters it appeared the Catholic Church was behaving “with lies and deceit” within its own structure.
He said he assumed Victorian Police would be taking up the matter in relation to church officials moving paedophile priests to parishes where they could continue their offending.
Cardinal Pell's testimony on Ridsdale amounts to this: I knew nothing about Ridsdale and Bishop Mulkearns is responsible @australian
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) March 1, 2016
#Pell: "There was no reference to paedophilia at any meetings I attended"#royalcommission: "But you have no recollection of the meeting"
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) March 1, 2016
#Pell getting gnarly: "Well, I could just try to repeat what I've said two or three times..."
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) March 1, 2016
Abuse survivor Phil Nagle said the paedophile Ridsdale’s offending with children was well known in two Victorian communities including among clergy, parents and police.
“Cardinal Pell is a very astute, a very bright man so how can he say he didn’t know?
“He is the one putting the accusations back on his superiors that they lied and deceived.” Mr Ridsdale said Cardinal Pell was “either culpable or an ignorant buffoon”.
“I don’t believe he’s the latter and we have no evidence of the former so we have to wait for the commission to do its job.” Chief Commissioner Peter McClellan warned the cardinal he would be culpable if the commission found he knew of Ridsdale’s offending at the time.
11.20am: Pell pushed on Ridsdale
Now looking at 1982 meeting where Ridsdale was moved on. This was the fourth such meeting Pell was part of @australian #royalcommission
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) March 1, 2016
Pell: I don't remember any of the meetings at which Ridsdale was discussed@australian #royalcommission @CARoyalComm
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) March 1, 2016
Lawyer for he #royalcommission tells Pell his evidence he knew nothing about Ridsdale's Abuse is "implausible"
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) March 1, 2016
Cardinal Pell is floundering now #royalcommission
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) March 1, 2016
Pell says he "can recall specifically" that paedophilia not mentioned but one priest told him it was bc Ridsdale was homosexual @australian
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) March 1, 2016
Pell says he knew Ridsdale was a "somewhat difficult" priest but not that he was a paedophile @australian @CARo
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) March 1, 2016
Gail Furness puts to Pell that he failed in his duties as a Consultor. Pell rejects this, saying he relied on Bishop Mulkearns @australian
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) March 1, 2016
10.35am:‘Ignorant but not wilful’
Cardinal George Pell has agreed that he was “ignorant but not wilful” in relation to the repeated movement of a paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale from parish to parish.
He agreed this was the case when it was put to him by counsel assisting, Gail Furness, SC.
At the time, in the 1970s, then Father Pell was a member of the consultors committee which decided on the moves of Ridsdale, a serial paedophile.
RC: you accept the church failed to protect children in 70s and 80s in Ballarat?
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) February 29, 2016
Pell: Certainly there was a gigantic failure of leadership.
RC: Do you accept any responsibility for Ridsdale being moved from parish to parish when u were a consultor?
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) February 29, 2016
Pell: No I don't @australian
"For those who were ignorant (ie. me) I think it is improper to impute responsibility to them," Cardinal Pell says #royalcommission
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) February 29, 2016
A reminder of Gerald Ridsdale’s movements and offending:
1962-1964 - Assistant priest at Ballarat North - First complaint in Ridsdale’s first year as priest - boy from Villa Maria boarding school in Ballarat East
1964-1966 - Assistant priest Mildura
1966-1969 - Assistant priest Swan Hill
1970-1972 - Assistant priest Warrnambool
1972-1974 - Assistant priest Ballarat East
1974-1975 - Parish priest Apollo Bay. Puts in for transfer February 1975 after man tells him in a pub there’s talk about him and kids
1975 - Parish priest Inglewood. Leaves overnight after policeman complains that he has interfered with his son. Sent for counselling
Early 1976 - Temporarily appointed to Bungaree
1976-1979 - Administrator then parish priest Edenhope
1980 - Study leave, National Pastoral Institute. Offended there
1981-1982 - Parish priest Mortlake. Prolific offender. Replacement believes Ridsdale molested every boy aged 10-16 at the school
1982 - Starts on-and-off counselling
1982-1985 - Catholic Enquiry Centre, Sydney. Within 12 months offends against boy from parish prayer group who became his altar boy.
End of 1983 centre director says “I want him out of here”
Early 1986 - Short periods as Woy Woy assistant priest and Forestville administrator, both in then Sydney archdiocese
July 1986-May 1988 - Assistant priest Horsham (August 1987 - Written complaint about offending while in Horsham)
April 1988 - Steps down from parish work
June 1988 - Priestly faculties suspended for 12 months
November 1989-September 1990 - Residential program at Jemez Springs centre in New Mexico. A document before commission says Ridsdale admitted to police he offended in US
March/April 1991 - Assistant priest St John of God Hospital, Richmond, NSW (role as a chaplain)
May 1993 - Admits indecently assaulting eight children. Now Cardinal George Pell and Father Adrian McInerney accompany him to court. Sentenced to two years and three months, suspended after three months
November 1993 - Laicised
August 1994 - Admits abusing 20 boys and one girl from 1961-1981. Held in custody
October 1994 - Jailed for 18 years (15-year minimum)
August 2006 - Sentenced to 13 years (seven-year minimum); admits abusing 10 boys from 1970-1987
April 2014 - Sentenced to eight years (five-year minimum); admits abusing 11 boys, three girls from 1961-1980
April 2019 - Eligible for parole, aged 84.
AAP
9.56am: Hearing resumes
The next 2 hours will be massive for Pell. The #royalcommission has warned he'll be found "culpable" if he knew anything about Ridsdale
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) February 29, 2016
RC strategy clear: they are building up to 1982 decision by committee on which Pell sat to re-locate paedophile Gerald Ridsdale @australian
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) February 29, 2016
9.32am: Hearing adjourns for short break
9.30am: Bishop and priests ‘lied’
Cardinal George Pell says he was lied to and deceived by a bishop and priests who knew about the child sexual abuse crimes of a fellow clergyman, who was repeatedly moved to new parishes where he continued to offend.
Cardinal Pell told the child abuse royal commission that while he didn’t know why Father Gerald Ridsdale was moved on to new parishes in the Victorian diocese of Ballarat in the 1970s, Bishop Ronald Mulkearns and other priests knew of repeated paedophilia allegations.
Commissioner Justice Peter McClellan asked: “You say the bishop deceived you, is that right?” Cardinal Pell replied: “Unfortunately, correct.”
Talking about 1977 meeting involving Pell where Ridsdale was moved after abuse. If trap is to spring, it must be now...
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) February 29, 2016
Commissioner McClellan challenges C. Pell on his knowledge of why Ridsdale was moved - Pell says he was lied to by others @australian
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) February 29, 2016
An advisor to the bishop, Monsignor Fiscalini, deceived him as well, Cardinal Pell said.
The commission heard that Bishop Mulkearns, Monsignor Fiscalini and possibly other consultors knew of complaints against Ridsdale as early as 1972.
Ridsdale was repeatedly shifted from one parish to the next as “talk” began among parishioners about his interfering with children.
“It’s hard to imagine a greater deception, isn’t it,” Commissioner McClellan asked.
Cardinal Pell replied: “It probably would be possible to imagine a greater deception but it is a gross deception.”
More angry reaction from public gallery in Sydney as C. Pell says "we work within a framework of Christian moral teaching" @australian
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) February 29, 2016
THIS is a real clash between Royal Commissioner Peter McClellan and George Pell @australian @CARoyalComm #royalcommission @CLAN_AU
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) February 29, 2016
IT was the most tense moment yet in C Pell's evidence when Commissioner McClellan warned Pell he could be "culpable" @australian @CLAN_AU
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) February 29, 2016
Cardinal Pell told the commission he understood there were “difficulties” with Ridsdale but was not told they involved paedophilia, prompting Commissioner McClellan to ask if he was lied to.
“So we’re in the position where you were deceived by the bishop and deceived by Monsignor Fiscalini and someone - possibly the bishop - has lied to you, is that right?” The commissioner asked. Cardinal Pell replied: “That is correct.”
NOW A FIESTY GEORGE PELL TAKES ON COUNSEL ASSISTING GAIL FURNESS. THE GLOVES ARE OFF @australian @CARoyalComm @CLAN_AU #auspol
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) February 29, 2016
FURNESS RESPONDS WITH SARCASM When C Pell says people should read a document Furness says she "suspects some lawyers" know that @australian
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) February 29, 2016
Within the church "those who know don't say and those who say don't know," Cardinal Pell says. @australian #royalcommission
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) February 29, 2016
8.50am: Children were put at risk
Children were put at risk when a Victorian bishop moved a priest after a child abuse complaint, Cardinal George Pell says.
Cardinal Pell said it was unacceptable that Ballarat Bishop Ronald Mulkearns moved paedophile Gerald Francis Ridsdale between parishes, including to Inglewood in 1975, after receiving a victim’s complaint.
“It’s unacceptable because of the risk it presented to children in Inglewood and that was exacerbated by the fact it doesn’t seem as though any effort was made to withdraw Ridsdale, at least for a period, for counselling or advice or help,” he said.
Church's decision to move Ridsdale to a new parish after he was known to have abused children was "unacceptable" Pell says #royalcommission
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) February 29, 2016
Card Pell says he does not remember discussions re why Ridsdale was moved from parish to parish @australian @CARoyalComm #royalcommission
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) February 29, 2016
Loud gasps of surprise were boomed – with a second’s time delay – direct into the Hotel Quirinale room of the Royal Commission when Cardinal George Pell blithely claimed he had no interest whether it was common knowledge in a Victorian country town that the catholic priest Gerard Ridsdale was sexually offending against young children.
In the most shocking revelation of Cardinal Pell’s evidence so far, he told the Royal Commision that he didn’t know if the offences of priest Ridsdale was common knowledge or not.
Cardinal Pell said: “I couldn’t say everyone knew, I knew a number of people did, I didn’t know if it was common knowledge or not. It was a sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.’’ (See video below)
Cardinal Pell had started saying talking about suffering but his comments were cut out by the loud reaction to his comments. For a split second Cardinal Pell appeared confused and then went on to say he very much regretted the suffering but he had no reason to turn his mind to the “evils”’ that Ridsdale had perpetrated.
PUBLIC gallery breaks into anger when C Pell says the story of Ridsdale was "a sad story and it wasn't of much interest to me" @australian
â John Lyons (@TheLyonsDen) February 29, 2016
Cardinal Pell taken aback when gasps of shock from Sydney room are heard in Rome room.
â Jacquelin Magnay (@jacquelinmagnay) February 29, 2016
Ridsdale was the parish priest at Apollo Bay in 1974 to 1975 but put in for a transfer in February 1975 after a man told him there was pub talk about him and children.
He went to Inglewood, where he left overnight in 1975 after a policeman complained about him interfering with his son.
Cardinal Pell said moving Ridsdale was unacceptable and at the time the view would have been that he should have been at least sent for counselling as a minimum step if a bishop knew it was a first offence.
“These were different times with different sets of predispositions,” Cardinal Pell said.
“But whatever the predispositions, it’s unsatisfactory.
“In those times if it was a first offence they would have thought that there was more justification in them being sent away for counselling and for help with the possibility of return.”
Ridsdale's abuse was "common knowledge all through the Catholic congregation" in 1976 #royalcommission hears. Pell says he knew only in 1993
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) February 29, 2016
"Certainly from the middle '80s onwards (child abuse) was a topic of fairly regular discussion at the Bishops' conferences," says Pell
â Dan Box (@DanBox10) February 29, 2016
7.55am: ‘We danced like we won the Oscars’
David Ridsdale, a Ballarat abuse survivor, tells the media “we danced like we won the Oscars” after the group returned to their hotel room at the conclusion of the first day of the royal commission hearing, to find out Spotlight (about The Boston Globe’s investigation of abuse in the Catholic Church) had won Best Picture.
6.16am: ‘I have full backing of Pope’
Cardinal George Pell has just arrived for the second day of giving evidence at the royal commission - this time through the front door of Hotel Quirinale - and declared “I have the full backing of the Pope”.
Cardinal Pell had met with Pope Francis earlier in the day as part of his regular weekly schedule, where the ongoing royal Ccmmission was discussed.
Cardinal Pell's security minders only squashed a photographer this time as he enters hotel front door for day 2 @CARoyalComm
â Jacquelin Magnay (@jacquelinmagnay) February 29, 2016
3am: More troubled questions to come
The rain continues to pour down here in Rome, and earlier there was a fierce hailstorm. Is this a portent of the grilling Cardinal George Pell will again face at 10pm Italian time when counsel assisting the royal commission Gail Furness digs into the nitty gritty of his later career as an assistant priest?
Certainly the survivors from Ballarat who are here at the Hotel Quirinale to witness Cardinal Pell’s evidence believe there are more troubled questions to come and that Ms Furness was setting the scene on day one for a more pointed inquisition on day two.
She had led Cardinal Pell through his reactions to his church compatriots and how they had ill-handled the paedophilia activities of Monsignor John Day; how the Ballarat diocese had reappointed Day to the Timboon parish after knowing of his sexual acts against children.
Cardinal Pell could be now quizzed about his role as auxiliary bishop of Melbourne in the late 1980s and his knowledge of some of the worst clergy paedophiles at the time: Gerard Ridsdale, Peter Searson and Kevin O’Donnell. Critically he will be asked about his role as a consultor – one of the advisers to the bishop – and influence, if any, in the relocation, rather than reporting to authorities, of these paedophiles.
Meanwhile the Cardinal’s evidence has attracted headline news across BBC World and Europe and of course blanket coverage in Australia, but within Rome there was only short mentions highlighting his comments about the catastrophe of paedophile priests and the Church’s mishandling of the issue.
- With AAP