NSW Premier Chris Minns’ staffers grilled in heated caravan bomb plot inquiry

In a heated parliamentary hearing, senior NSW government staffers have rejected claims at an inquiry into the Dural caravan plot that they had ‘broken the law’ by refusing to appear until threatened with arrest.

From left, Tilly South, Ross Neilson, James Cullen, Edward Ovadia and Sarah Michael at the hearing. Picture: NewsWire / Jeremy Piper

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In a heated parliamentary hearing, senior NSW government staffers have rejected claims at an inquiry into the Dural caravan plot that they had “broken the law” by refusing to appear until threatened with arrest.

Almost an hour of the hearing was taken up by aggressive questioning from committee members about the initial refusal of the five public servants to attend, including what messaging apps they used to communicate with each other and what legal advice they had sought.

The inquiry is investigating whether Premier Chris Minns knew there was doubt about whether the Dural caravan incident was a “real” terror incident but used it to push through new hate speech and protest laws to protect the Jewish community.

Mr Minns and Police Minister Yasmin Catley have declined to appear before the upper house committee because they are lower house MPs and cannot be compelled to do so, leading inquiry chair Rod Roberts to order the appearance of their staffers under the Parliamentary Evidence Act.

Mr Minns described the committee as a “star chamber” and said it was acting in a punitive way against the staffers in order to ­coerce him to appear.

The five staffers had argued the summonses were not validly issued and that the 124-year-old act did not permit their arrest, but Legislative Council president Benjamin Franklin obtained ­advice from Bret Walker SC that the committee was empowered to demand attendance.

On Friday, Mr Minns’ chief of staff, James Cullen, deputy chief of staff Edward Ovadia and senior adviser Sarah Michael, along with Ms Catley’s chief of staff, Ross Neilson, and deputy chief of staff Tilly South, defended their ­decision not to attend an earlier hearing.

Chris Minns’ deputy chief of staff Sarah Michael gives evidence at the inquiry. Picture: NewsWire/Rohan Kelly

Ms Michael told the committee the decision was not taken lightly: “We are staffers, where our jobs are to support the politicians, not to be the face of things.”

Liberal MLC Susan Carter asked Ms Michael: “So you thought it was right to disobey the law?”

Ms Michael replied that she wasn’t disobeying the law and that it was entirely proper that the staffers had sought legal advice.

“You were untroubled by breaking the law?” Ms Carter ­repeated.

“It wasn’t that we were breaking the law here, we just needed to get more advice about what our rights were,” Ms Michael replied.

Greens MLC Sue Higginson asked Mr Cullen whether he knew “that it would be contempt to not follow the summons”. Mr Cullen said matters of privilege had been raised by the Premier and endorsed by the Speaker of the lower house, and that the five had sought legal ­advice on whether they had “reasonable and just cause” not to attend.

Chris Minns’ chief of staff James Cullen at the inquiry. Picture: Rohan Kelly

“There is effectively a test, ­albeit limited, under the Parliamentary Evidence Act that we ­decided to avail ourselves of, and fast forward, and here we are ­answering your questions.”

Mr Cullen was also questioned about the substantive issue of the inquiry – whether the Premier was aware that the Dural caravan incident had been masterminded by a criminal before the passage of hate speech and protest laws.

“The Dural incident wasn’t put forward as a reason to support those pieces of legislation,” Mr Cullen said. “In fact, those three pieces of legislation had been worked on for various periods of time, but certainly have followed through the 12 or 18 months worth of life in Sydney which included a rise in anti-Semitism.”

Mr Cullen said at least 367 incidents of anti-Semitism had been reported to police during the period. “If people think that they were duped, I would extremely disagree,” he said.

Mr Cullen was repeatedly questioned about the Premier’s statement at a press conference after the discovery of the explosives-laden caravan that “there is only one way of calling it out, and that is terrorism”.

Asked who “came up with the line”, Mr Cullen said the Premier was “very much capable of coming up with his own lines”.

“The reason that language was being used in that press conference was because it was exactly the language and the briefing the police provided the Premier ,” Mr Cullen said.

Mr Cullen was asked why notes had not been kept of meetings with police at which the caravan had been discussed. The meetings were information updates from the police, he said.