Moira Deeming grilled on women’s activists’ views on Nazis, paedophiles
Defamation silk Matt Collins KC, representing Victorian Liberal leader John Pesutto, grills rebel MP Moira Deeming on her beliefs about trans rights, Safe Schools, Nazism and paedophilia.
What’s the connection between the women’s rights movement, Nazi iconography and wild allegations of paedophilia?
This is the tone of cross-examination by one of the nation’s leading defamation barristers, Matt Collins KC, as he defends his client, Victorian Liberal leader John Pesutto, in a lawsuit brought by MP Moira Deeming.
Deeming – represented by another star barrister, Sue Chrysanthou SC, is in the witness box, explaining her views on issues like the Safe Schools education program, and her connections to women’s rights activists Angie Jones, Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull and Katherine Deves.
This is an edited transcript of today’s edition of our daily news podcast, The Front.
Who is Moira Deeming?
Moira Deeming is a Victorian politician in her early 40s – a member of the state’s upper house. She sits as an Independent Liberal – a label she gave herself after she was expelled from the Liberal Party.
She’s a mother of four, married for two decades, a former high-school teacher who was elected first to the local council, then, in 2022, to parliament, on the strength of the big issue that drives her.
“Women and girls are suffering in Victoria because this government cannot or will not define what a female is, and as a result every woman and every girl in Victoria has lost the right to enjoy female-only sports, female-only change rooms and countless other female-only activities.”
This is Deeming’s first speech to parliament.
“As a result, what most women would consider to be sexual harassment and indecent exposure is now legal in Victoria. As a result, there is right now at this very moment a twice-convicted male rapist housed with the female prisoners in my area in the Dame Phyllis Frost correctional facility. They are the most vulnerable women of all. Surely there must be ways to ensure the safety and dignity of trans people which do not trample on the rights of women and girls.”
Deeming was part of a wave of women from both the right and left of politics expressing concern about what they considered the erasure of women.
They were taking on an equally passionate group: advocates who say they’re fighting for the rights of children and young people struggling with – or wanting to change – their gender identity.
A couple of years back, as Black Lives Matter faded and before Israel-Gaza snatched the limelight, this was the hottest social issue of all.
And for the Liberals, it made Deeming too hot to handle.
Why did the Liberals expel Moira Deeming?
It’s March in Melbourne, in 2023. A group of protesters gather on the steps of Victoria’s parliament.
It’s called Let Women Speak, and it’s organised by Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull, who also goes by the name Posie Parker.
The British activist believes the push for trans rights is eroding womanhood.
She declared: “We don’t need to be on the far side of anything. But we will not lie, and we will not let you lie to our children.”
In attendance is Victorian MP Moira Deeming, who’s helped organise the rally. She delivers a speech to the group – and then all hell breaks loose.
Violence erupts as members of a neo-Nazi group crash the rally, police quickly losing control.
The so-called Nazis perform a salute and hold a banner declaring: DESTROY PAEDO FREAKS.
In a post on the social media platform X – formerly known as Twitter – Deeming writes: “Disappointed with Victoria Police, who let a bunch of masked men into the Let Women Speak buffer zone, terrifying women who were just trying to speak about their rights. Police managed to stop hordes of trans rights activists, but somehow could only walk masked men past us as they did a horrible Nazi salute.”
After the rally, on 18 March 2023, Deeming publishes a video of herself with Keen and fellow activists Angie Jones and Katherine Deves, in which they drink champagne.
A day later, on March 19, Victorian Liberal leader John Pesutto issued\s a press release signalling his intention to boot Deeming from the party.
The day after the press release, John Pesutto doubles down in radio interviews.
Deeming is first suspended, then expelled from the party.
She vowed to fight the expulsion and, now, she’s suing Pesutto for defamation.
Why is Moira Deeming suing John Pesutto?
The basis of Deeming’s claim is a press release issued by Pesutto’s office on March 19, 2023. She claims her reputation has suffered serious harm because that press release contained an imputation she supports and sympathises with neo-Nazis and white supremacists – or that she is one.
In the fallout, Deeming claims her electorate office was vandalised, she was uninvited from community events, and threatened online and over the phone. She claims someone tried to access the backyard of her family home, where her four children play.
She says the hatred drummed up by Pesutto’s campaign against her hasn’t subsided.
What is John Pesutto’s defence?
Pesutto is relying on defences of contextual truth and honest opinion about a matter of public interest. He says Deeming is not a fit and proper person to be in the Liberal Party.
On Tuesday the court was played a remarkable piece of audio – the kind of behind-the-scenes action of politics that we’ve all seen on The West Wing or House of Cards.
But this is real. There are four MPs, including Liberal leader John Pesutto, confronting Deeming.
Their frustration isn’t so much about what Deeming said – it’s about who else she’s associated with, like failed Liberal NSW candidate Katherine Deves.
‘We could catch Dan Andrews robbing a 7/11’
Pesutto is deeply frustrated – because he believes Deeming’s high-profile activities are stopping his bid to bring down Labor premier Dan Andrews.
The words from the tape are read by voice actors. First, John Pesutto. “I’ll be honest, with whatever we’re talking about, we could find Daniel Andrews robbing a 7/11. But if you bring Katherine Deves down, everyone’s going to go: ‘I don’t care about that. Katherine Deves is in town’.”
Much of the discussion in the audio is about the actions of others at the rally on the steps.
First, Angie Jones, a women’s rights activist, who tweeted: “Nazis and women want to get rid of paedo filth, why don’t you?”
And the presence of a neo-Nazi group, whose leader, Thomas Sewell, put out a statement saying this: “Today in Melbourne, the National Socialist Network acted as a vanguard for protest against a constant paedophilia agenda being forced upon our children and our people. Paedophiles deserve destruction and the only solution to this sickness is a white revolution. Destroy the paedo freaks.”
Why would women’s rights activists invoke Nazi symbology?
At their meeting with Moira Deeming, Pesutto and the other Liberals tell Deeming wrong to associate yourself with people who link the LGBTI community with paedophilia.
Later in his cross-examination of Moira Deeming, the barrister representing John Pesutto, Matt Collins KC, pointed out the Nazis in World War II rounded up and brutally persecuted gay people.
Collins also pointed out prior social media posts by Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull, including changing her profile picture to an image of a Barbie doll wearing a Nazi uniform, and a 2020 tweet in which he said Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull showed a rainbow-coloured Gestapo logo and the word ‘Pridestapo’.
Collins told the court: “What it does is it equates the rainbow flag, a symbol of pride for LGBTI plus people, with the operations of the Gestapo who rounded up gay people and sent them to their deaths. Now, one can have a civilised debate about whether advocates for trans and gender diverse people’s rights do so in a civilised way, or ought to adopt a different tone. But to equate them with the most murderous regime in the history of the world is odious.
“This is a case about whether Mr Pesutto honestly held the view that a person who associated with someone who would post that kind of content is a fit and proper person to be in the party that he leads.
During the meeting, Deeming tells Pesutto she had no idea the Nazis were attending.
Deeming said in the audio: “The first time I saw them doing Nazi salute was when they were being ushered by the police … And I was thinking ‘oh my gosh there are Nazis here, that’s terrible, but at least the police are taking them away’, That’s it. Very obviously, I am not a Nazi, and I don’t support Nazis.”
She also says she didn’t understand Angie Jones’ tweet to be suggesting trans people were connected with paedophilia.
Here’s what John Pesutto says.
“I’ve very much tried to position the party so no matter who you are, whether you are, whether you are hetero, whether you are same sex attracted, whether you are trans … The Liberals can be a voice to you because the values of the party apply to everyone. We’ve got a huge problem now that people think we walk in lock-step with Nazi protests … And I’m getting clobbered on social media.”
Do you think I’m a secret Nazi?
Another MP, deputy Liberal leader David Southwick, says: “Do you want to be part of a team? This team? The actions of every individual reflect on our team.
“And as a Jew, in terms of what happened on those steps and the people that you associate with in that video afterwards, is highly offensive.
“And I respect that you’re able to have your views – 100%, they’re not my views, but they’re your honest views.”
Deeming replies: “But honestly, what – what views do you think that I have legitimately that are so terrible. Like, do you actually think that I am some kind of a secret Nazi?”
John Pesutto intervenes. “No, sorry. Moira, Moira. I do have to stop you there. I apologise. I do have to stop you. David was saying precisely the opposite. David was not condemning you for your views. In fact, he was doing the opposite and respecting the fact that whatever views you have are yours. David, continue.”
Southwick: “The issues that I have are more about the group that you associate with – that have associations and have been associated with known Nazis. After everything happened, you chose to have champagne on a couch with these individuals.”
I’m beyond furious, Moira
MP Georgie Crozier chimes in: “I’ll be really blunt, I am beyond furious about it, Moira. Because I went to you and I said we are here to help you. We want you to succeed. I said that. I said please come to us, we all make mistakes. But this looked deliberate about what you went out knowing that it was going to cause some tension and it did.”
Eventually, Deeming agrees to disown any of the others’ views about Nazism or paedophilia.
Pesutto says: “I know you are passionate about these things, so I get it. If you want to be able to continue to do that. The best way to do that might be to be an independent, to give you complete freedom. If you want to be in the party, there would have to be some clear, if you like, road rules. You can’t hang out with these people. You just can’t. You can’t go to rallies.”
Deeming replies: Obviously I’m not interested in promoting Nazism, it’s not a problem, You’ve told me I don’t have to give up my arguments about the laws about balancing sex-based rights. I don’t want to be a single-issue MP.”
Pesutto sounds like he’s softening – but another MP, Matthew Bach, says this:
“I don’t think there is a way forward. So for me the issue is your friends – the people you worked with, the people you showed through parliament very openly and publicly – have a long history of sympathising with neo-Nazis and white supremacists.
“I don’t think a reasonable person would believe you when you say you had no idea that these are the long standing stated views of your people. I don’t believe you. And it’s absolutely clear to me from what you’ve said that you don’t get the seriousness of the matter at all. Your mob have stated white supremacist views, and still we’re arguing about exactly what that might mean when they call trans people paedophiles, which of course, in and of itself is quite disgusting and disgraceful. So for mine, I don’t see a way forward.“
Libs ‘gaslighting’ Deeming
Deeming’s barrister, Sue Chrysanthou SC, told the judge the meeting showed Pesutto came to the meeting determined to sack Deeming.
“Your Honour, this was a shocking pile-on of my client by these people. And it’s a form of what young people call gaslighting,” Chrysanthou said.
“They don’t want to hear her being apologetic, they don’t want to hear her making concessions and that’s what she’s doing – making concessions in order to fix the situation.
“They are confusing her, they are changing the topic, they are changing the goalposts and there’s frankly nothing she can say or do or agree to do that will change their minds because contrary to their evidence, the decision had been made long before this meeting.”
On Tuesday afternoon Moira Deeming entered the witness box.
Deeming on Safe Schools ‘sleazy drivel’
John Pesutto’s barrister Matt Collins KC went straight to one of the issues that made Deeming famous: a Victorian education program called Safe Schools.
Moira Deeming: “I believe programs like Safe Schools and others in the same vein play on absolutely justifiable empathy and concern of society for the mistreatment of gay people throughout history, but that in practice it does three things. It removes child safeguarding standards in schools … like male teachers do not supervise female changerooms.
“It promotes high risk sexual activities whilst downplaying the consequences. And it usurps parental rights.”
Collins asked: “And I don’t mean to oversimplify it, Mrs. Deeming, but is that in short order, why you described the Safe School program as silly as, quote, sleazy, unnecessary drivel?”
Deeming: “Lots of it. Absolutely.”
Collins: “And you’ve also publicly described the authors of the Safe School program as, quote, literal paedophilia apologists.”
Deeming: “That’s correct. I think these programs are outrageous and that has nothing to do with bigotry or hate or extremism. These are ordinary standards. And the reason why people consider me controversial is because they don’t know the programs as well as I do. And other people go around saying that the reason – the only reason – someone would disagree with something that had a wonderful stated purpose was because they hated gay people or something like that.
“And it’s not true. I’m not willing to stop protecting children just because people misrepresent me.”
This is an edited transcript of our daily news podcast The Front. Hear it wherever you listen.
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