Treasure of the hidden Trump tape
A long-forgotten recording reveals a unique piece of pre-presidential Trump history — from blondes to billions, impeachment and the power of ego | LISTEN
The long-forgotten mini audiocassette lay undisturbed at the bottom of an old Chinese chest.
We had brought it from our small flat in Hong Kong to a new Brisbane home in 1999 on returning to Australia after six years away.
Along with the audiocassette in the chest, embossed with drawings of Chinese boys at play, were strewn random mementos of life and the early years of our own two children.
They’re now adults, voting and fond of saying “OK, boomer” to us, with accentuated eye-roll.
Also in the chest were official papers and poignant personal cards acknowledging our son’s birth in Hong Kong on November 10, 1998; finger paintings on butcher’s paper by him and his sister as toddlers; and a red velvet pouch enclosing first teeth, one of which fell out and disappeared under a sofa in the half-light of a recent Brisbane evening.
But the mini audiocassette grabbed my attention most. It was discovered in the rarely opened chest only by chance — we were looking for keepsakes to flesh out our son’s 21st birthday celebrations. I peered at the now-obsolete small rectangle of plastic. The handwriting on the Sony cassette’s label was mine. Twenty-one years ago, I scrawled: “Trump on baby birth eve.” It was a recording of my interview with him.
At the time, Bill Clinton was in the White House gripping to power with a fuming Hillary by his side. Independent counsel Kenneth Starr was examining the president, Monica Lewinsky and tawdry evidence — even a semen-stained blue dress — over a sexual relationship, a subsequent cover-up and Bill Clinton’s alleged perjury. On December 11, 1998, the House Judiciary Committee voted to recommend the impeachment of the 42nd US president.
Twenty-one years later our son’s birthday party in Brisbane loomed. This time it was President Donald Trump — a veteran of multiple sex scandals and allegations of sexual impropriety before, and after, his vanquishing of his challenger, Hillary Clinton — who faced impeachment, albeit in a less salacious case: alleged misuse of power in Ukraine.
But in November 1998, as my wife and I waited anxiously to go to a hospital in the Mid-Levels area for Alexander’s delivery, Trump wasn’t a politician. He was a showy property magnate, visiting Hong Kong for meetings with the Chinese billionaires who had funded him in a spectacularly successful New York property development.
Billions and blondes
It was transformative and in the nick of time after the collapse of most of Trump’s business. Were it not for the rescue by the Hong Kong billionaires, it has been argued, Trump might not have recovered and wouldn’t have become President.
We met at Hong Kong’s new Chek Lap Kok airport and most of the interview unfolded in a limousine en route to his hotel.
The subsequent article in The South China Morning Post depicted a publicity-seeking New Yorker with rich Chinese backers, a towering ego, a penchant for statuesque young blonde women, and a story of winning big in property, losing almost everything, then rebuilding his fortune.
The headlines give a taste: “The world according to Trump — Building skyscrapers, brokering billion-dollar deals and … blondes. All part of being a New York property tycoon”.
The audio recording of our interview seemed of little consequence after the story ran. I’d put it in the Chinese chest and forgot I’d kept it.
But last month when I came across the cassette I became intrigued. Who knew, 21 years on, what remarkable disclosures it might hold?
My imagination raced while recalling the leak three years ago of a recording from 2005 — the one in which Trump had boasted that when he meets beautiful women he feels entitled to “grab them by the pussy”.
My colleague at The Australian, Michael McKenna, lent me his old mini-cassette player to see if the tape had survived the humidity of 20 Queensland summers. A hiss and a voice came through the speaker as the tiny wheels turned. The first words were a nod to Trump’s renowned phobia about germs and hygiene.
“Mr Trump? Hi, I’m Hedley Thomas. You don’t have to shake my hand — I know about your dislike for shaking hands. I saw you on Larry King.”
Having met in the arrivals hall at the airport after his 16-hour flight, we walked with his bodyguard, Eric, and a young woman who preferred to remain nameless.
Trump said she was a friend who worked for him. They looked close. He called her “Honey”.
Politics ruled out
As Trump settled into the limousine for the 40-minute ride to the Grand Hyatt in Wan Chai he sniffed. A strong scent wafted from the bottle of air freshener fixed to the vehicle’s dashboard. Hong Kong is a city of powerful aromas. “Wow, that’s some smell in here,’’ Trump said. “That’s a real strong cleaning fluid. You want to open it (a window)? It’s like being in a hearse. It’s actually not a bad idea.”
No world exclusive revelations on the recording with the future president yet. But there’s still 35 minutes to go.
Me: “Watching American politics from afar has just been like watching a fantastic soap opera the last year.”
Trump: “You’re right.”
Me: “How do you feel about what’s happened with Bill Clinton and Monica and so on?”
Trump: “Well, I think it’s terrible. I think that it’s been terrible for the country. I think the prosecutor’s out of control, I think Clinton was totally out of control and I think he handled it terribly after he got caught.
“I think everybody has done a terrible service to the United States, from Clinton to the prosecutor. This thing should have gone away a long time ago but you know it just seems to have legs, it just seems to keep going.”
Me: “You’ve ruled out a political career for yourself?”
Trump: “Yeah, I think so, I’m just having a good time doing what I’m doing.”
To remind myself of context I dug out my article from 21 years ago. The circumstances flooded back — a friendly woman called Norma who ran Trump’s office in New York had contacted us at The South China Morning Post to flag his planned visit to Hong Kong.
I’d duly quoted her, perhaps to highlight his office’s orchestration and Trump’s unusual zeal for publicity.
From The South China Morning Post, November 8, 1998:
Paragraph from Donald Trump’s PR brochure:
“A schoolboy’s dream … a competitor’s challenge. Donald J. Trump is the very definition of the American success story, continually setting standards of excellence while expanding his interests in real estate, gaming, sports and entertainment. He is the archetypal businessman, a deal maker without peer and an ardent philanthropist.”
By Hedley Thomas
Were it not for a calculated gamble of several hundred million dollars by a Hong Kong cabal led by Vincent Lo Hong-sui, Cheng Yu-tung and his son Henry, the laudatory lines from Donald Trump’s glossy-gold corporate curriculum vitae might have been worded somewhat differently.
Bankrupt with $US9 billion ($HK69.5 billion) in business debts, $US975 million guaranteed personally: that is what his business epitaph could have said, describing him, perhaps, as the archetypal entrepreneurial opportunist of the 1980s who flew high, bingeing on debt while developing brassy casinos, real estate, even an airline — the Trump Shuttle — before he crashed and burned, taking creditors with him.
A self-confident Mr Trump flashes a grin to his 20-something blonde chaperone (we have agreed she will remain nameless for personal reasons), who returns a sweet smile across the deep leather-bound seat of a black stretch limousine as it glides away from the curb at Chek Lap Kok.
With bodyguard Eric, a hulking presence with a crew-cut and dark suit, the trio drew inquisitive stares along the airport’s concourse on Friday night, proving the Trump visage is recognised outside New York, or that the anonymous blonde in tight-fitting trousers and fuchsia blouse is very striking.
Once inside the waiting car, my tape recorder rolling, The Donald’s famed PR spiel whirrs into action. It began a week earlier when one of his aides, Norma Foerderer, called the Post to offer an interview.
“Mr Trump is coming to Hong Kong and on one of our other visits there was a very nice piece on him in the newspaper,” she had said. “We wondered if you would like to catch him this time to find out what he’s doing.”
A check of the files showed that was in August, 1993: Mr Trump and his then-girlfriend, seven-months pregnant Marla Maples, would stay in a suite at The Peninsula, visit Macau to meet fellow casino king Stanley Ho Hung-sun, then be stranded at the enclave’s Mandarin Oriental in a typhoon.
Soon after Ms Foerderer’s call, some Trump bumf arrived in a dossier detailing his winning ways in New York’s booming property market, due partly to his cashed-up Hong Kong partners who came to the rescue when times were tough. Then Trump Corporation executive vice-president Abe Wallach rang to clarify a few things.
Mr Trump, he explained, had engineered “an incredible turnaround in his financial affairs — from a negative net worth of more than $US900 million to a net worth now of $US5 billion — by being tenacious and never wanting to give up”.
Clearly his Hong Kong partners helped him tremendously in salvaging things, said Mr Wallach.
“They had the foresight to come in and make the commitment and take the gamble and we respect them very much. It’s a good example of how East and West can work together.”
Hollywood actress
Back to the tape. Trump is extolling the integrity and acumen of his Hong Kong-Chinese business partners. I’m raising weightier matters such as his rumoured romance with There’s Something About Mary star Cameron Diaz.
Honey’s as quiet as treacle and Eric is nervously promising the boss his golf clubs will make it to the hotel in another car.
Trump: “They said I was wooing her (Diaz) but I wasn’t at all. Other than I think she’s very nice.
“My life is wild, it’s just wild. And things are written. I mean they had me with women that I’ve never even heard of before. It happens all the time.
“And that story is totally false, too. Other than I’ve met (Diaz) a couple of times. I don’t know, it’s been a wild ride and I’ve had a lot of fun with it. And you know the press is largely inaccurate and some of it’s true, you know some of it’s true. It can’t all be false.”
Me: “I remember I was in New York at the time when you and your split-up (with Maples) was publicised and the New York Post reported that you actually announced it in the paper before your wife heard about it — and you kicked her out of her flat. Is there anything in that?”
Trump: “Well, she’s a good woman and we have a really good relationship. And I really blame myself because I just didn’t have time for the relationship. And that’s not something I’m proud of, it’s just that I’ve been very busy. If I had more time, maybe I wouldn’t have got the (property) zoning for Henry Cheng and for myself and for all our partners.”
The power of ego
While the New York property redevelopment spearheaded by Trump and funded by Hong Kong’s wealthiest billionaires was immensely profitable — and averted bankruptcy for him — it still didn’t end well. Three years ago, The New York Times delved into the litigation Trump launched against his Hong Kong partners after they had sold the development in 2005 in what was described as “the largest residential real estate transaction in the city’s history”.
Trump was a significant beneficiary, but he accused the Chinese of a “staggering breach” and of not having told him they were selling. They rejected his claims and fought his legal action over several years.
The judge ruled against Trump. The New York Times said the action “underscored (Trump’s) willingness to destroy a fruitful relationship with aggressive litigation”, while Wallach said Trump was no fan of Hong Kong: “He didn’t like the food and couldn’t use chop sticks.”
Back to the tape.
Me: “What do you think New York people think of you?”
Trump: “Well, I think, you know, my apartments sell for 30 to 40 per cent more than anybody else’s. I just did one at 610 Park Avenue — we broke every record in the book.
“The polls all say they love me. Everyone wants me to run for office but I think I’m too controversial to run for office but every poll says if I run for any office, I win, so I guess they like me.
“You know they understand me. I’ve sort of like grown up with the people of New York and I think they understand me.”
Me: “The labelling of your assets is kind of legendary — the Trump Princess, the Trump Shuttle and the Trump buildings. What do you think a psychologist would say about your need to stamp everything with your name?”
Trump: “Well, I don’t do that. I mean, for instance, I have the Grand Hyatt, which I just sold, I owned the Grand Hyatt in New York and I just sold it to Hyatt Hotel Corporation for a lot of money. I got a lot of money.
“You know, when I think something is really great I’ll put my name on it because I can’t hurt the name — the name is a great franchise right now. You know, the name is a very valuable franchise. Because I put the name Trump on something and it sells.
“You know, it’s funny, somebody was saying that ‘he’s much hotter today than he ever was in the 80s’.
“And I was thinking about that for a second and it’s sort of amazing that you can go through, because I went through three years of really terrible press. I mean, I went from being the super genius of all time to the super dummy of all time — and now it’s the super genius of all time again. And you’d almost think that three years of terrible press would not let you have that moniker but it’s almost like it doesn’t exist.
“Which tells you there’s nothing deader than yesterday’s newspaper, with all due respect.”
Me: “Is a healthy ego a prerequisite for being a successful businessman?”
Trump: “Well, I think it helps. I’ve never met a person who is successful who didn’t have an ego. Henry Cheng has a big ego and he’s very successful. Vincent Lo. The Wongs. I mean, people that are successful in almost all instances are going to have a big ego. And if you don’t have a big ego you’re just not going to be a success. I’ve never met anybody, unless it was through inheritance, that didn’t have an ego or didn’t think well of himself or herself that was successful.”
Me: “How would you describe your ego?”
Trump: “Well, I think it’s, it’s substantial, but it’s, you know, I think there’s a sense of confidence because I’ve had a lot of success, and it’s interesting as you have more and more success your ego becomes bigger because you’re more confident in yourself.
“But you know, even in 1992 when I was in trouble, I mean, I still think I had an equal amount of confidence. I understood what was wrong and I knew how to fix it.”
Me: “Nothing you do is understated or subtle. Is that part of the marketing?”
Trump: “Well, I think that’s part of the marketing.”
Me: “Or part of the personality?”
Trump: “It’s probably part of both. But it’s also part of the marketing. I know how to build on time, on budget, and I also know how to conceive something that people would like. But I don’t think I’m a good promoter. I think I’m a great builder and an OK promoter, but I think that the buildings are so great that the buildings give me more credit as a promoter than I deserve. Does that make sense?”
The conversation traversed golf and Trump’s awe at watching how far his friend Greg Norman could hit a ball. He spoke of other friendships — with Kerry Packer, James Packer and Rupert Murdoch. He said: “I love Rupert.
“I have enemies. But you know, generally speaking, I have good relationships with people. I have enemies in life because anybody who is successful is going to have enemies.”
Cocktail connections
Trump was on a high. He saw himself in an upswing.
“Well it’s never been better for me, as you’ve probably been able to garner, and it’s been a good period of time. And the one thing about, you know, the great success now is that I appreciate it much more than I appreciated it in the 80s.
“When you get hit a little bit you start to appreciate the niceties of life. So you know by having a rough patch I now appreciate the success, even though the success is much greater now than it was in the 80s, I appreciate it more.”
Me: “What are, for you, the niceties?”
Trump: “Well, I just appreciate it more. I just feel better about it, you know, before I didn’t think about it. I thought I was successful because I was born to be successful.
“All of a sudden I wasn’t in that position for a period of time and I said: ‘Wait a minute, what’s this?’ Now that I’m even more so, I’m saying, you know, this is really sort of nice. I think it’s an important lesson.”
As the limousine neared the Grand Hyatt, Trump asked if I’d like to join a party he was hosting that night for friends and big gamblers he knew from their forays on the tables at his casino in Atlantic City.
“At about 7.30 I’m having a little cocktail party for some of the high rollers. I hear it’s quite nice. You might want to join us,” he said.
I replied that my wife, Ruth Mathewson, was “probably hours away from going into labour” with our son, Alexander. I told Trump I’d be “pushing my luck” to join him for cocktails.
There were no world exclusive revelations in the interview. It wasn’t hard-hitting — Trump was a colourful property guy. He didn’t misbehave.
On his 21st birthday, our son beamed while hearing a snippet of audio — his old man citing his unborn son’s imminent arrival in the world as a reason to decline an invitation from Trump to a cocktail party.
The mini-cassette is back in storage.
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