Spotify’s head of ‘Talk’ talks crime, creators and exclusivity

Max Cutler, the Parcast founder now leading one of the audio streamer’s fastest growing businesses, says Spotify needs to help podcasters find listeners, revenue.

‘We now have 4.4 million podcasts on Spotify — they need to be heard,’ says Max Cutler, Spotify’s vice president of talk creator content and partnerships. Picture: AFP

When Max Cutler started making true-crime podcasts, he gave them titles that doubled as search terms: “Serial Killers,” “Cults,” “Unsolved Murders.” “At that time, discoverability was woefully broken in the podcast space, ” he said. The plain-spoken titles made it easier for resident true-crime fans to find them. “That allowed us to kind of hack our way to the top of the charts.” Three years after selling his company, Parcast, to Spotify Technology SA, Mr Cutler is leading the Swedish streamer’s efforts to make its platform more appealing to creators. Mr Cutler, 31 years old, recently took over as Spotify’s vice president of talk creator content and partnerships – a remit shifting his focus to the people who power one of the audio giant’s biggest growth areas.

In an effort to be the biggest participant in what Spotify believes will become a $US20bn business, the company is spending money on attracting more podcasters.

“We now have 4.4 million podcasts on Spotify – they need to be heard,” said Mr Cutler. Besides the big names like Joe Rogan, Alex Cooper and the Obamas, he says Spotify needs to help emerging talent find listeners and revenue as well.

Ad revenue from U.S. podcasts last year rose 72% to top $US1bn for the first time, according to the Interactive Advertising Bureau, which forecasts the market will exceed $US2bn in 2022. Spotify’s ad revenue jumped 31% in the most recent quarter, accounting for a record 13% of total revenue, which remains dominated by subscription fees.

Monthly podcast listening has slipped this year to 38% of Americans over the age of 12 from 41% a year ago, according to industry tracker Edison Research. Researchers highlight, however, that listening is up from 2020, and that 2021 numbers were inflated by time spent at home amid Covid-19 restrictions.

Mr Cutler also just published his first book, “Cults,” based on the podcast of the same name.

He spoke with The Wall Street Journal about cults, creators and the future of audio. Edited excerpts follow.

WSJ: Why cults?

Mr Cutler: I’ve always been fascinated by the psychology behind crimes. Every morning, I walk my dog, I’m going to work, I’m going to come home. How does a serial killer get up, do the same thing, but you know, in the middle of day, maybe kill somebody, was really fascinating to me. All the Parcast shows we launched in crime because that’s where the audience was.

WSJ: What has true crime’s role been in the growth of the podcast industry?

Mr Cutler: Early on, that’s kind of where true crime was happening. That’s where people went. We want to build habits, we want to be part of somebody’s day. Every show is evergreen, and that’s intentional. Because if you were to discover a show like “Unexplained Mysteries” today, there’s quite literally over 200 hours of content for you to consume, and you get hooked.

WSJ: What is the vision for content and creators when it comes to podcasting at Spotify?

Mr Cutler: Spotify needs to become a true platform. We have to create new features, whether that be the subscription service we announced for creators on the episode level, the live feature we’ve done in the past, video now. In our last quarter, we’ve now really turned on ad revenue in a meaningful way. And how does that trickle down to creators and make sure it gets back to their pockets is something we’re very focused on.

WSJ: Where do you see podcasting and audio going?

Mr Cutler: There are so many podcasts, if you want to stand out you have to be different. If you look at companies like Calm and Headspace, these are really very similar to podcast companies. How can we think about that? Education is fascinating. Video is working. Alex Cooper, the host of “Call Her Daddy,” when she came to Spotify, she started producing more video content and now it’s this blending of podcasting as video, podcasting as audiobooks. You’re going to start seeing the crossover happen a lot more, which is going to grow the whole landscape.

The Spotify page for The Joe Rogan Experience podcast. Picture: AFP

WSJ: Joe Rogan has become a lightning rod, especially for some artists and other Spotify creators who in some cases didn’t want to share a platform with him. Has that experience altered your approach?

Mr Cutler: Ultimately we want to work with all creators, we want to be a platform that represents all voices. How do we ensure that we treat all creators equally, and continue to invest in more creators? I think that was a great learning experience, we continue to listen to everybody, both creators and our users. And we’re just learning.

WSJ: How important is exclusivity of content and creators in Spotify’s future?

Mr Cutler: I think exclusivity helps differentiate our catalogue to other platforms. We want to work with the best-in-class creators. That doesn’t mean they’re the biggest creators in the world right now.

WSJ: Surfacing the right podcasts to the right listeners remains a hurdle. Spotify figured this out with music. Are you able to tweak those algorithms for podcasting?

Mr Cutler: We forget Spotify has been around for a long time, and the music algorithm has taken many years to get to where it is. That’s the same for podcasting. We’re using what we learned from music and adapting into the podcast space. Our algorithm will continue to get better.

WSJ: What other trends are you most excited about in audio?

Mr Cutler: The pie keeps growing. How do we innovate formats? There’s going to be changes in terms of what is a traditional scripted show. It’s seeing other creators cross into the podcast space. And whether that’s from YouTube, or Instagram, or authors, some of these end up being some of the best podcasters. Podcasting is now mainstream. It wasn’t long ago I had to explain what a podcast was. I don’t have to do that anymore.

The Wall Street Journal