Behind the scenes with Enough hosts Sophie Aubrey, Jewel Topsfield

Sophie Aubrey and Jewel Topsfield are hosts of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald’s latest podcast, Enough. Here they talk about how the podcast came about, introduce some of the young people who opened up about their experiences of mental illness and discuss what listeners can expect from the rest of the series.

The first episode of Enough is available now (listen below). How would you describe the podcast to subscribers?

Sophie: In essence, it’s a podcast about youth mental health. Although “about” isn’t quite the right word because the voices of young people are really front and centre. We were clear from the beginning that it’s their stories that will lead the series. We’ve spoken to dozens of young Australians, aged 14 to 25, about their experiences of mental illness, including depression, anxiety and disordered eating. They describe in their own words how they get through it and the effect the pandemic has had on their mental health. We also, of course, have a handful of terrific experts who help explain what’s behind the rise in mental illness and offer advice on how to cope.

Enough podcast hosts Sophie Aubrey and Jewel Topsfield in the studio.Credit: Simon Schluter

How did the idea for the podcast come up? What’s behind the title Enough?

Jewel: The pandemic really opened up the discussion around mental health. Not only were we reporting on the impact of COVID-19 on young people’s mental health, we were living it. Many of us at The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald have children whose lives were scrambled by the pandemic and almost two years of restrictions and home-schooling, and we could see the toll it was taking. We thought a podcast was the perfect vehicle for young people to tell us in their own words what they were going through and what helped them.

Sophie: Exactly. This was always a subject we wanted to do more on and COVID-19 really reinforced that. As for the title, our colleague Sarah Berry came up with the idea and we very quickly knew that “Enough” was a perfect title. We started asking each young person we interviewed what the word “enough” meant to them - initially just to get a gauge on whether it would be an effective title - and we were blown away by the diverse answers. I’d get goosebumps whenever someone would say: “I am enough.” We then decided to include some of those answers in the series. You’ll hear them at the start of each episode.

How did you become involved and what interested you in this project?

Jewel: As social affairs editor at The Age, mental health is one of the areas I report on, but it’s also deeply personal, as two people very close to me died by suicide in the last two years. We hoped that young people talking about their experiences would help others.

Sophie: Like Jewel, I have personal reasons for my interest in mental health. I also cover personal health in my work as The Age and the Herald’s deputy lifestyle editor. As a community, we’ve come a long way in how we view the mind as something that needs to be cared for, just like our bodies, and that message is so important for young people to absorb.

What can we expect from the rest of the series? What are some of the other issues you cover across the six episodes?

Sophie: Mainly, you can expect to hear a lot of incredible young Australians. They talk about some of the darkest moments, but they also share a lot of important messages of hope and seeking help. Each episode will focus on a different topic, including suicidal ideation, anxiety and eating disorders. Just to mention a few, you’ll meet 18-year-old Alex, who is transgender, and dealt with depression and self-harm. There’s also Daniel, who was on 24/7 suicide watch for several months when he was 16 because of panic attacks, anxiety and depression. He’s unrecognisable now: his stutter no longer bothers him and he’s a foster parent at 22. And you’ll hear from Portia, a young Indigenous woman who explains how intergenerational trauma and racial discrimination have contributed to her suffering from anxiety.

Jewel: While we have six core episodes, we’re also planning a few surprises. We won’t give too much away just yet, but we’re encouraging listeners to email or call with questions about mental health. So if there’s anything you would like to know, or you would like to send us some feedback, we’d love to hear from you. You can contact us on [phone] or [e-mail] / [e-mail]

Young people are a lot more open about mental illness, partly because they know it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but also because they know full well that it’s only by talking about it that we can eliminate any lingering stigma.

Sophie Aubrey

These are difficult subjects that will strike a personal note for some. How did you encourage young people to speak openly about their experiences?

Sophie: We had pre-interview catch-ups on Zoom in the middle of last year with every young person you’ll hear in the podcast. That gave them a chance to ask us questions and for us to prepare them for the kind of topics we would like to talk about. It meant that when we eventually sat down together, there were no surprises. We also gave each interview lots of time. It was really important that the young people felt comfortable, and we would often be sitting together, gently moving through their story for more than an hour. That might not sound long, but a lot of the time interviews in this job are very short - 10 to 15 minutes isn’t unusual. The interviewees also knew there was no pressure to speak about their deeply private moments - we would make that clear - although more often than not they simply wanted to. Young people are a lot more open about mental illness, partly because they know it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but also because they know full well that it’s only by talking about it that we can eliminate any lingering stigma.

Jewel: That was one of the things that struck me too. I was blown away by how candid and comfortable the young people we interviewed were talking about their mental health and how normalising this felt. They sought help from psychologists, counsellors and GPs as readily as they would for any other medical concern, which was so encouraging. It was very different from when I grew up in the 1980s and 1990s. I was aware of eating disorders and there would be hushed mentions of nervous breakdowns, but it certainly wasn’t something we talked about openly. I remember being surprised when a friend told me she had depression about 25 years ago.

Sophie: This is so true. I remember the phrase “I’m depressed” being thrown around when I was in high school in the 2000s, but that was the extent of it. There was no understanding of what that actually meant, I suspect even by those who said it. That’s certainly not the case any more.

How have some of the stories you feature in the podcast touched you?

Sophie: I can think of heaps of moments. This might sound cheesy, but with every young person I interviewed, I walked away feeling both touched and like I’d genuinely learnt something valuable. Anita reminded me of the preciousness of life and my loved ones when she expressed how grateful she was to be alive after surviving two suicide attempts; Melani opened my eyes to the complexity of binge-eating disorder, which very few people really understand despite it being by far the most common eating disorder. I’ve learnt that having “coping mechanisms” is absolutely not a marker of weakness - it’s one of strength. And I have a personal goal this year to come up with some of my own. Cuddling my dog will definitely be on the list - the number of times young people gave a shout-out to their pets was really sweet.

Jewel: One of the interviews that really resonated with me was Ava, a year 12 student who has depression. She talks about being frustrated with the tips often given to tackle depression, such as getting exercise and eating healthily. Ava makes the salient point that although rationally we all know this will make us feel better, it’s virtually impossible when you can’t get out of bed. I’ve had exactly the same thoughts when I’ve been depressed. When we asked our interviewees what had helped them, they tended to talk about spending time with pets or listening to music. I also can’t go past the final line of the LGBTQI+ episode. Todd Fernando, the youngest, first openly gay Indigenous commissioner in Australia, gives this gorgeous advice to young queer people who are struggling with their mental health. In his lovely soft voice, he says: “I know it’s a cliche, but life really does get better. For those who are still yet to come out of the closet or yet to fully understand who their identities are, we are here waiting whenever the time is right for you to do so in a safe way. The queer community is willing to embrace you with open arms and love.” It has me in tears every time I listen.

Who do you hope listens to the podcast, and what do you hope it achieves?

Sophie: Above all, we hope young people listen and realise that if they’re dealing with mental health issues, they’re really not alone. I also really hope they feel more equipped to manage whatever they might be experiencing. The episodes have so much wonderful advice direct from young people who have been there, as well as mental health experts. A lot of Australians don’t know what it’s actually like to have a panic attack or suicidal thoughts or an eating disorder, and I’m confident that you’ll come away with a lot more compassion and understanding. But we also have broader goals.

The first episode of the six-episode series looks at depression.Credit: The Age/the Herald

Jewel: Well, we hope that youth mental health will be a national priority for this country, especially in a federal election year. I think we are allowed to say that! It was really concerning to hear of just how overwhelmed the mental health system is with psychologists closing their books because their waiting lists are so long.

Did you have any memorable moments making the podcast?

Jewel: So many. Like the time we had to re-record our voice-overs because of this thing I had never heard of called vocal fry. For the uninitiated, it is when (mostly young women’s) voices sound raspy or pop at the end of a sentence. I read it’s called fry because it sounds like bacon sizzling in a frying pan. Listen to Kim Kardashian speak and you’ll know what we are talking about. We disappeared down this fascinating rabbit hole on the internet about whether vocal fry is a feminist issue. But vocal fry aside, I feel very lucky to have worked with Sophie and Margaret Gordon, our gun producer, whose experience and patience was invaluable for an amateur like me. I couldn’t have asked for better people with whom to make a podcast in the middle of a pandemic. And I am overwhelmingly grateful to the young people who shared their stories with us with such candour and rawness and humour. Meeting them in parks (we weren’t allowed into studios during the height of lockdown) was inspiring and energising. My own mental health was pretty battered at the time and it was exactly what I needed.

Sophie: Ah, vocal fry. Guilty! I shan’t forget the Kim Kardashian vocal fry compilation. I have a few other favourite moments, like the first time Jewel, Margaret and I met up in real life. We had started working on the project a month or two earlier but had only done so virtually because we were in the middle of Melbourne’s long 2021 lockdown. When restrictions allowed, the three of us caught up at a park in Footscray on a sunny afternoon. Sprawled on a picnic blanket for a couple of hours, we plotted out the episodes. It was also the first time Jewel and I got to know the recording equipment we’d soon know so well. I also shared some unforgettable moments with Jewel at a three-day camp for disadvantaged youths. There was one group therapy session where both of us were quietly bawling behind our masks, so moved were we by the teenagers who were speaking. That same weekend, we held hands, performed “eye connects” and lay on the floor top-to-toe listening to a children’s bedtime story. It was a really special weekend (and you’ll be hearing all about it in one of our episodes). And really, I want to echo what Jewel said. Podcasting was a new storytelling medium for me too, but working with Jewel and Margaret has been a dream. And words really cannot express just how grateful I am to every young person who sat down with us.

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