‘It’s on Wikipedia’: Debate flares over Trump’s submarine disclosures to Anthony Pratt

Former prime ministers have distanced themselves from revelations that Donald Trump allegedly disclosed classified information about United States’ submarines to Australian packaging mogul Anthony Pratt as debate flared about the national security implications of the alleged leak.

Pratt, the executive chairman of Visy Industries and Pratt Industries, is among more than 80 people whom prosecutors have identified as possible witnesses who could testify against the president at his classified documents trial.

Anthony Pratt, then-Australian prime minister Scott Morrison and then-US president Donald Trump at a Pratt factory in Ohio in 2019.Credit: Alex Ellinghausen

The revelations about Trump’s alleged indiscretion regarding sensitive national security information have revived fears among officials in Canberra about the volatile scenario they would face if Trump wins next year’s presidential election.

Pratt allegedly spoke to Trump about nuclear-powered submarine technology during an April 2021 meeting, five months before the US, Australia and UK announced the formation of AUKUS, the defence pact under which Australia is set buy up to five Virginia-class submarines from the US.

According to America’s ABC News, which broke the story, Pratt told Trump he believed Australia should start buying its submarines from the US.

Trump then allegedly told Pratt two pieces of information about US submarines: the supposed exact number of nuclear warheads they routinely carry, and exactly how close they supposedly can get to a Russian submarine without being detected.

It is alleged that Pratt relayed the information to “scores of others” including three former prime ministers, more than a dozen foreign officials, several employees, and a handful of journalists.

Former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull said Pratt did not disclose the conversations to him.

“Trump did ask me in early 2017 why we were buying French rather than US subs,” Turnbull said.

“I explained that it was important that they be a sovereign capability, and that we did not have the means at that stage to sustain and maintain nuclear-powered submarines ourselves.”

Scott Morrison did not respond to request for comment, while Tony Abbott said: “I don’t have any recollection of it.”

Opposition foreign affairs spokesman Simon Birmingham said that “the suggestion of such matters being aired in ways that breach national security undertakings is one that I’m sure US officials would take very seriously, and I would expect them to similarly in Australia”.

Saying that members of Australia’s national security committee of cabinet were expected to keep operational details secret “for the rest of our lives”, Birmingham said nuclear-powered submarine secrets were among America’s “most treasured” military assets.

“I’m sure many in the United States will take very, very seriously the suggestion that these types of technologies, and the capabilities associated with them, could be subject to discussions outside of those confined spaces,” he told Sky News.

Joe Hockey, who served as Australia’s ambassador to the US while Trump was in office, downplayed the seriousness of the alleged disclosures by saying: “At a national security level, there is nothing there that we haven’t known for years or that you can’t pull up on Wikipedia.”

Hockey said that US and Australian troops already work on each other’s submarines and there was significant sharing of sensitive military technology between the two nations.

The alleged conversation between Trump and Pratt did not carry implications for the security of the AUKUS pact, he said.

Defence Industry Minister Pat Conroy said: “I will not comment about US domestic issues.”

Michael Green, the chief executive of the University of Sydney’s United States Studies Centre, said: “There is a clear pattern with former president Trump of treating sensitive information, and the intelligence community with real carelessness.”

Green, a former senior official in George W Bush’s White House, said there were many publicly available reports on the number of warheads stored on US nuclear submarines.

“Former president Trump is not exactly a fact checker,” he said. “I’m not sure how to judge if serious damage was done or not. The most damaging thing is that this is such a pattern.”

Richard Dunley, a naval historian at UNSW, struck a different tone, said: “Navies have always been very sensitive about this sort of thing.”

For example, navies are still wary of disclosing information about submarine technology used during the Cold War.

Dunley said Trump’s alleged indiscretion about sensitive military matters, rather than any specific information the Republican presidential frontrunner may have disclosed to Pratt, was the most troubling issue.

“You wouldn’t necessarily know the line between fact and fiction,” he added of Trump.

Trump, who polls show is easily leading the Republican presidential field, responded through a spokesperson by calling for the US Department of Justice to investigate what he called criminal leaks.

These “leaks are coming from sources which totally lack proper context and relevant information,” the spokesperson said.

Prosecutors and FBI agents have reportedly interviewed Pratt, who is a member of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago club, at least twice.

The alleged disclosure, if confirmed, sheds new light on the impact of Trump’s decision to remove classified documents from the White House after he left the presidency in 2021.

A Pratt Industries spokesperson did not respond to requests for comment.

There is no suggestion Pratt broke any laws.

A spokesperson for the special counsel’s office declined to comment on the report or confirm whether Pratt had been interviewed over the alleged disclosures.

Pratt allegedly insisted to investigators he disclosed his meeting with Trump to demonstrate how he was advocating for Australia with the US, ABC US reported.

Justice Department special prosecutor Jack Smith did not include information about Trump’s alleged conversation with Pratt in his June indictment against Trump.

Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home was raided by the FBI in August 2022, as they searched for classified documents the former president allegedly removed from the White House.

In June, Trump was charged on 37 criminal counts for mishandling classified documents – from secret information relating to nuclear programs to sensitive intelligence.

Trump was later charged with “wilful retention” of national defence information, and two counts of obstruction charges. The case is to be argued in the federal court in Florida in May 2024.

Even as Trump’s 2024 election campaign proceeds, and he continues to raise millions in donations for it, his legal woes have grown.

He has been charged in a federal case over his efforts in trying to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election ahead of the violent riot by his supporters at the US Capitol on January 6.

Smith is leading that case, as well as the Mar-a-Lago classified documents case.

Separately, Trump pleaded not guilty to charges of election interference in the state of Georgia in a case that has involved 17 other co-defendent, including his former chief of staff Mark Meadows.

In March 2024, the criminal case against Trump over paying hush money to porn star Stormy Daniels, is scheduled to go to trial, after a jury voted to indict him.

In total, Trump faces 91 felony counts in two state courts and two federal districts.

He is also being sued for fraud by the state of New York in a civil case that he chose to attend this week. Trump, his sons and their family business have been accused of inflating the value of his properties to get better loan terms and lower insurance premiums. The prosecution claims Trump illegally generated more than $US1 billion of financial benefits.

With Farrah Tomazin

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