John Laws scores our PMs out of 10

John Laws, 88, now on Radio 2SM in the morning slot, celebrated 70 years on air this week. I spoke to him on Thursday, in his studio, in the early afternoon.

John Laws in the 2SM studio. “I never thought of myself, and I still don’t, as a journalist.”Credit: Janie Barrett

Fitz: John, back in November 2007, I was cleverly disguised as a fellow broadcaster at 2UE right in the booth next to you, when you gave what we all thought was your final broadcast. You finished with a brilliant soliloquy, starting: “Fifty-three years ago, in a small studio in Bendigo, I pressed a yellow switch that went from right to left, and for the first time, I heard my own voice on the radio and knew my life was never going to be the same again. I was right. And it was because of you, dear listeners … ” We will get back to that retirement speech. But can you take me back to that beginning?

JL: Yes. I remember very clearly. It was an exciting time in Bendigo. I was 18, and had never done anything like that before, had no training, and was pretty nervous. But it was amazing. And then I just settled in, thought, well, “here we go”. And I kept talking, and I’ve been doing it ever since, for the last 70 years. From Bendigo, I went to Townsville, where I had a good look at the nurse’s quarters, and then I moved to Newcastle … and then I moved to a few places and just loved it. It was so easy for me. I didn’t have any difficulty with it at all.

Fitz: And in those early years of moving around, did you think of yourself as a journalist, a broadcaster, an entertainer, what?

JL: I never thought of myself, and I still don’t, as a journalist.

Laws with long-time ratings nemesis Alan Jones in 2019. “We’re friends now.”Credit: James Brickwood

Fitz: Nevertheless, let’s agree that you would have started to make a serious impact on the affairs of the day as a broadcaster, when you first interviewed an Australian prime minister.

JL: Sir Robert Menzies was the first prime minister I interviewed. I thought he was a real gentleman. And it was interesting because when we knew that he was actually coming into the studio we were all told to wear a tie, but the times changed, and by the early ’80s we had moved to Bob Hawke, who arrived saying “Just call me Bob!”

Fitz: The most famous moment of your career was when Paul Keating said to you that if, as treasurer, he couldn’t bring in sensible economic policy, then Australia would end up as “a third-rate economy … a banana republic”. I remember somebody at the time telling me that you didn’t know at that moment what a banana republic was, and had to have a producer tell you?

JL: I had a rough idea. There is indeed a story that goes around that I didn’t know at all but that was not the case.

Fitz: Keating also famously said, “if you want to reach middle Australia, talk to John Laws”. Now at that point, you were at the absolute height of your influence. What did that feel like, that you could alter public perceptions on the mood of the day and have an effect on the politics of the day?

JL: I never thought about it. I just expressed my opinions.

Kevin Rudd having lunch with Laws in 2007. Laws scores him four out of 10 as a prime minister.Credit: Dean Sewell

Fitz: It surprises me that a man of its influence doesn’t claim to have been a deeper thinker than you were. [Jocularly] I put it to you, John Laws you’re as shallow as a birdbath!

JL: That’s a good expression.

Fitz: Well, what’s the answer?

JL: The answer is, I’m as deep as I need to be.

Fitz: Let me put it to you that with your level of influence, you had a responsibility to go deep, to get down to the very bottom of an issue to work out what the rights and wrongs of it are.

JL: I was always aware that I should think about things, and not just simply go with them because it was suggested I should.

Fitz: But then we come to whole “cash for comment” thing.

JL: That was so much bullshit. Somebody asked me to do something. But I didn’t do it for the money, and it became blown out of all proportion. It was just stupid.

Fitz: Well, you had contracts, and the money didn’t go to charitable endeavours, and it was about pumping up the tyres of the banks in return for big cheques, and that money went to you.

JL: . . .

Laws on “cash for comment”: “That was so much bullshit.”Credit:

Fitz: Let the record show a slightly awkward moment before we moved on … Most impressive interview subject over your 70 years?

JL: Robin Williams. He came into the studio, sat down, and he said “Just before we start, I gotta let you know. I’ve got, flat out, 10 f---ing minutes.” He was there three hours later. He and I had the best time. Jesus, he was clever.

Fitz: When you were at the height of your powers and at the height of your fame, I remember one very sad quote from you, when you said something like, “To everyone, I am not just me, I’m John Laws. Even to members of my family, I’m John Laws.” Did you ever feel isolated by that fame?

JL: My fame was a fact. But it wasn’t always a pleasant fact.

Fitz: You’ve had some great enmities, most notably with Alan Jones.

JL: Yes, for a very long time, but we’re friends now.

Laws in 2007 with his wife Caroline, who he called “the princess”. Credit: Lee Besford

Fitz: I’m sorry to hear that. I remember in the great days of your feud, Jones got out a tape measure at the 2UE studios in St Leonards to make sure his office was bigger than yours. Do you remember that episode?

JL: I do remember that, and it was because his manager was an even bigger jerk – Harry M. Miller. But mine [office] was bigger.

Fitz: OK, let’s go to fellow veteran broadcasters. What do you think about 3AW’s Neil Mitchell retiring shortly?

JL: [Dismissively.] I couldn’t give a f---.

Fitz: Ray Hadley? He was Jones’ sports guy, and filled in for you, which gave him his start. And then he went off to 2GB and did much the same kind of show as you, complete with the same kind of music, etc. Were you resentful of that?

JL: Oh, no. I was surprised that he didn’t have an idea of his own. I’m still surprised.

Fitz: OK, let’s go back to your extraordinary soliloquy in 2007. You timed it out perfectly for the first of the beeps leading into the news. I was watching closely, and described in the Herald how you slumped for a minute afterwards and sat quietly like a master craftsman who had laid down his tools after 53 years, knowing he would never pick them up again. And yet, here we are, 16 years later to the day, and you are still going. Why?

JL: At the time, I never felt that I’d run out of power or the ability to communicate, but I was tired. Why am I still here now? Because I love it, I love it. And apart from that, it was unhealthy to sit around doing virtually nothing. It wasn’t good for me.

Paul Keating regularly appeared on John Laws’ 2UE show. Credit: Andrew Taylor

Fitz: You’ve always said the great love of your life was your late wife Caroline, who you always referred to as “the princess”. Forgive this if it is too personal, but do you desperately miss her now that she has passed away?

JL: [Very softly]. Yes, I desperately miss her. Every day. Every afternoon, I sit in my chair at home and quite often I imagine her walking down the hall to me … Yes, I do, I do, I do.

Fitz: Was she the only one for whom you were not John Laws, the only one who could say, “Sit down John, and shut up”?

JL: She certainly had that within her power and if she had said that, I would have done it.

Fitz: OK, let’s go through the latter-day prime ministers who you’ve known and interviewed extensively, and you give them a mark out of 10. Bob Hawke?

JL: Nine

Fitz: Paul Keating?

JL: Nine.

Fitz: John Howard?

JL: Ten.

Fitz: Kevin Rudd?

JL: Four.

Fitz: Julia Gillard?

JL: Seven.

Fitz: Scott Morrison?

JL: Oh, I can’t even remember him!

Fitz: Anthony Albanese?

JL: Oh, I like him. I think he’s going well. I think I’d give him nine out of 10.

Fitz: How do you think Opposition Leader Peter Dutton is going?

JL: Pretty ineffectual.

Fitz: All these years on, I’m not confident that I know which way you vote. Back in the day, I would have thought you were a hard-right nutter. These days, I am not so sure. Can I ask which way you voted on the Voice?

JL: No.

Fitz: Why not?

JL: Because I don’t want to tell you.

Fitz: OK. About 20 years ago, when I first heard my sons use the word “douchebag” I gave them the rounds of the kitchen, about what an appalling word that was, and to never use it again. They pointed out it was on every second episode of Family Guy. The times had changed around me, while I wasn’t looking. Do you never feel that the times have passed you by in the things that you think and say?

JL: No, I think I’ve been very lucky because I’m a good observer. And I observe what’s happening around the place. I want to keep up with the times and I do keep up.

Fitz: But you infamously had a rule that women in your office had to wear skirts. Do you still have that rule?

JL: Yes.

Fitz: That would be against the law, John.

JL: The staff don’t mind. Look at them. They’re all happy. And it’s voluntary. The reason that I insisted that they wear skirts was if we had important people coming in, I didn’t want them walking around in shorts, or walking around in slacks, I wanted them to look like efficient young women, which is what they always were, and are right now.

Fitz: But there must have been times in your 70 years on air, when you’ve thought, “Oh god. Why did I say that? What was I thinking? Why did I say that?”

JL: Not that I remember.

[We are politely interrupted by John’s EA, informing him that the news has broken that Henry Kissinger has died.]

Fitz: Did you meet or interview Kissinger, John?

JL: I was with him at a cocktail party. He was the only one I spoke to, and I was the only one he spoke to. He was terrific, with a huge brain. A lovely, lovely man.

Fitz: There will come a time John, I hope at least 15 or 20 years from now, when the news will break that you have died. What do you want the people of Australia to say?

JL: “At last!”

Fitz: Thank you, and I mean this sincerely: it’s been a pleasure.

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