That’s it for day three of Lattouf v ABC.
We’ll be back tomorrow when the hearing resumes at the later time of 10.45am.
Thanks for joining me today. Have a good evening.
ABC managing director David Anderson leaves Federal Court on Wednesday.Credit: Louise Kennerley
Prominent ABC presenters and reporters Paul Barry, John Lyons, Laura Tingle and Patricia Karvelas all made comments that could be perceived as not impartial, Anderson says, when different comments made by each were put to him by Lattouf’s barrister Oshie Fagir.
He confirms none were removed from their positions despite this.
Anderson says he was unaware of a tweet by Paul Barry, then the host of Media Watch, made on social media in October, which said: “Israel is killing journalists again”.
No one brought the comments to Anderson, he says.
“You haven’t spent an evening reviewing Paul Barry’s tweets?” Fagir asks.
“No, I haven’t,” Anderson responds.
He also says he was aware of comments ABC chair Kim Williams made about the Coalition’s energy policy last year, which were widely covered by the press due to the nature and content of the comments.
“Things get written about Mr Williams,” Anderson said. “[He] gives a lot of speeches.”
Anderson says this is a contentious statement, but an impartial statement.
ABC journalist Laura Tingle.Credit: Alex Ellinghausen
This goes back to a comment by the ABC’s Laura Tingle, who said Australia was a racist country at a Sydney Writers’ Festival event in 2024.
“Ms Tingle’s statements soon after that were problematic, but that statement was not what I had a problem with,” Anderson said.
Tingle was counselled after the event.
Anderson says: “She was counselled because she was not meeting the standards that I would expect of someone in that role, speaking publicly. I believe that she was undermining her effectiveness at work and to be able to do her job.”
David Anderson is facing a barrage of propositions from Oshie Fagir regarding what would constitute a contentious issue.
These include that racism in Australian society is the archetype of a contentious issue. Others he puts to Anderson are contemporary immigration policy, energy policy, and the victimisation of ABC journalists by News Corp.
Anderson agrees each of them are contentious.
“What about the cowering of ABC management before special interest groups,” Fagir asks.
“I don’t agree with that. I think that’s a contentious issue, but I don’t believe that it happens,” Anderson says.
Fagir: “Do you regard this as an impartial statement? Australia is a racist country.
Anderson: “I have no problem with that statement, because it is based in fact, that we have a history of racism.”
Asked about differing instances of ABC presenters making partial statements publicly, Anderson says each case is judged “circumstance by circumstance”.
“They’re not removed from air if it’s not a problem. If they do something that is otherwise considered to be undermining their effectiveness of work as per what we’ve discussed earlier, then yes, they might be sanctioned for it,” Anderson said.
Building on Anderson’s comments that a step may have been missing in the process, he says he had “no doubt” Oliver-Taylor’s direction was lawful or reasonable.
Beforehand, Anderson said he was not “entirely sure how adequate” the steps were to seek the right advice from employee relations and the people and culture department when making the decision.
“But otherwise it might not have changed the outcomes,” he said.
Anderson is being quizzed about Chris Oliver-Taylor’s decision to remove Lattouf.
He says: “If Mr Oliver-Taylor had his time over again, he might have sought additional advice from other people before he made his decision, but otherwise, I don’t know. I don’t know that I have an answer for you, that’s useful.”
Asked if he has any regrets over the process, Anderson says he “personally believes there was potentially a step missing, with regard to this issue, but it might have had the same ending”.
“What was the step missing an investigation?” Fagir asks.
Anderson responds: “Hindsight is a wonderful thing. You would like to have seen that there was certainly a discussion with Ms Lattouf to find out the motivation behind what I believed at the time was disobeying a direction, and then tried to ascertain what the resulting risk was.”
Oshie Fagir brings up an ABC report published on December 18, 2023, in which the broadcaster reported that Human Rights Watch had accused Israel of using starvation as a weapon of war.
“I look at the headline. The headline doesn’t breach what I would consider to be impartial. Out of the obligations, you’d want to have a look at the entire article, see the context, the analysis, any right of reply, all the things that we would expect to go to the publication,” Anderson says.
This article is important, as it is the same Human Rights Watch report that Lattouf shared on her social media on December 19, 2023. The ABC reported the story the day before Lattouf’s post.
Fagir says he wants to put to one side any suggestion the ABC has a single rule that no employee can express an opinion in which one section of the community may disagree.
“Nor does the ABC have any rule that it will not employ a person who has expressed opinions with which a section of the community disagrees on,” Fagir says.
Anderson agrees on both counts. “There needs to be something more than that,” he says.
When asked if he followed Lattouf’s cross-examination on Monday, Anderson admits he has not followed any of the proceedings so far.