Mark Robinson sits down with Ross Lyon to discuss his return to St Kilda

Ross Lyon is back in a big, new way, but what’s changed since he last coached? The Saints coach sits down with Mark Robinson to discuss how he’s going to be better second time round at St Kilda.

St Kilda coach Ross Lyon and journalist Mark Robinson at RSEA oval Moorabbin. Picture: Jason Edwards

Ross Lyon is a storyteller.

From the flint-hard streets of Reservoir to his second stint as St Kilda coach, he amassed 40 years in footy and has a story for almost every occasion.

If reputation is reality, then Lyon is prickly, stubborn and a no-fools sort of bloke.

But reality isn’t always what it seems.

He rambles and sometimes mumbles.

His stories head down one junction, turn left, turn back, cross over, double back and – “to get back to your question’’ – he then offers the simplest of answers.

But the fascination is in his rambling.

Ramblers are wonderful company, and especially so when the topic is football.

St Kilda coach Ross Lyon and Herald Sun chief football writer Mark Robinson at RSEA oval, Moorabbin. Picture: Jason Edwards

Why did he return to the Saints? Why will he be a better coach this time round? Why does he love footy? And why – despite all the assertions that cuddly Ross is the new Ross – the walls will go up when the real stuff starts as Leigh Matthews described of coaching.

Last go at the Saints, where they were flint-hard in attitude and performance, Lyon first devised – and then harnessed – the battle cry called “Saints Bubble”.

Story time:“It’s interesting you mention Leigh. I’ve been lucky enough to have limited conversations with him, but he’s been very supportive. In ’08, we got bundled out in the prelim (final) by Hawthorn, they smacked us, in ’09 we had that dominate year home-and-away and going into the finals we thought who better to talk to us than Leigh. He came and spoke to us in a dining room in South Melbourne. I think it was leading into the grand final, you know, ‘take care of everything early, get your tickets, turn your phone off’. Really, it’s the most important week of your footy life, so put yourself in the bubble. That was ’09 and we referenced that through 2010 at the right time, and it was a good catch cry for Dave Misson’s book. Yeah we were a fiercely driven group and we just fell short. The landscape has changed enormously. When I started, and if you think about it, Instagram, the iPhone was happening, social media, Facebook had just started to emerge and it became a new, quick news cycle and everything was being reported and we had issues at the time and the walls probably went up.”

“To answer your question, the walls do go up. But they don’t have to. At the end of the day, we’re playing footy and we’re trying to bring connections. Like, the broadcasters come in and Lewis Martin from Channel 7 says … the piece they really want is when the fence just disappears.’’

Lyon is in his second stint at the Saints. Pic: Michael Klein

He acknowledged Joel Selwood on grand final day with the fans.

“He’s very special Joel. So, we can bring the fence down as a club.’’

He acknowledges the players take cues from the coach.

Story time:“I remember Brendon Goddard once said to me, and it shocked me, he said, ‘We know when you’ve got a new pair of shoes on or you’re wearing cracked shoes’, and I was like, whoa, they’re really looking and watching.’’

A SNAPSHOT of Lyon’s football career is: He played at Fitzroy (127 games) and Brisbane Bears (two games); was assistant coach at Richmond, Carlton and Sydney; coach of St Kilda, walked out on St Kilda – “I dropped the iron curtain and did it for my family’’ – coached Fremantle, was sacked by Fremantle and now at 56, Ross Lyon 2.0 is back at Moorabbin.

“I’m more experienced third time round,” he said.

“I am going to be better. I’m going to be different. I feel like I’ve got an experienced coaching group.”

Story time:“I was talking to Robert Harvey the other day, and we feel as a group it’s going to be a year of exploration. There’s going to be ups and downs and we’re doing a lot right. I know and I’m confident in myself that I will continue to be quite level and considered.’’

The assistant coaches – Lenny Hayes, Harvey and Goddard and their partners – had dinner the night before this interview.

All of them played under Lyon and the changes in Lyon’s approach was a topic of their discussion.

Asked what he thinks they said, he said: “I’ve mellowed? I think they would recognise significant change in simplistic terms. What would they have said? Collaborate, they put the game plan together and I put on the finishing touches with them, really delegating, they know I trust them…’’

Lyon has recruited some former Saints players as his assistants. Picture by Michael Klein

That was the word – trust.

For two years, he was a full-time real estate man and a part-time media man on Triple M and Channel 9, and because of that, he bristles slightly at the suggestion the likes of Corey Enright, Hayes and Harvey might have a greater understanding on how the modern game is played more than he does

“It’s been exciting because each coach has given me an insight into something and I’ve looked at it differently, that’s what I wanted,’’ he said.

“There are opportunities to educate and they probably do it in a softer manner.

“They are different techniques and I think that’s good. But the game to be honest hasn’t changed that much. If anything the stand rule has brought it back to a game in motion and it suits our team defence. It’s all to do with the stand rule and I think it’s been great for the game.’’

He welcomes more “north-south’’ footy over “control and shape’’, although teams still “probe’’ because “as Chris Scott would say, it’s impossible to go helter skelter for the full 100.”

“And we all know it’s a quicker game, you can actually run past for a handball receive again,” he said.

Ross Lyon, Caroline Wilson, Eddie McGuire and Matthew Lloyd as part of Footy Classified in 2020 Picture: CH9

For a time there, he was almost Carlton coach, and was considered for Essendon briefly.

The Blues fiasco was sensational.

One day he looked to have the job and the next he pulled out of it on national TV.

“There were a lot of moving parts, but yeah it was black and white. But it was the right decision for everyone so that’s fine,” Lyon said.

His passion for footy grew through the remarkable 2022 season.

He loved what he was seeing. The ball movement. The key forwards. The magic of Collingwood. The professionalism of the Cats. The itch finally arrived and the Saints scratched it.

Story time:“I remember my daughter went with friends to the game, either Collingwood-Essendon or Collingwood-Carlton, and she was with the Collingwood people. She text me on the run and said, ‘Dad, it’s going insane here at the MCG, it’s sick down here’. I could feel that passion. Then I took her to the prelim, Sydney-Collingwood, the AFL lunch, an amazing game. People went mental about footy last year. I was in the Triple M box, we were roaring. Being in the media allowed me to be me. Hot Pies or whoever it was, the Cats, Carlton. There was no happier man than me for Chris Scott. He’s the best coach in the business virtually and how he was maligned, I didn’t understand it. Matty Armstrong, my old teammate at Fitzroy, he was in town and went and watched Brisbane and Melbourne. I went to the finals, the Grand Final I took my other daughter.’’

Lyon was heavily linked to Carlton in 2021, before returning to the Saints last year. Picture by Michael Klein

There’s a sense that Lyon is at home at St Kilda. He feels it.

The Saints opened their arms after he turned his back on them, like welcoming an old lover for another go at it. He’s been emotional a couple of times in situations he never expected to be.

“When I walk through the door I pinch myself a bit because if I was like what I was, it probably wouldn’t work,” he said.

“I certainly think I’m authentic to myself. I’ll say failure is feedback, I need to do it better, I need to move with where I’m at. It’s been an emotional opening of stuff that I just tucked away.’’

Story time: “I went and saw The Angels, the coterie group. I just spoke about coming back and I was a bit emotional. It actually shocked me. Obviously, there is some trauma there, but it tells me how much I care. It tells me there was a real connection to the club. The emotion comes because the club has opened their doors to me again and I’m glad they have. I’m 56, I said to the board the freight train of death is bearing down on me and so I didn’t want to wish that I could’ve, I would’ve. I didn’t jump in. I had 10 days of great exploration with Andrew Bassat and the board. I feel like all my knowledge and skill set is here. And I probably denied that. But I’m privileged and lucky and look, I know there’s going to be some rough seas here, but I can’t have asked more of the players. We really need to build with the players and the whole club and go on the journey for whatever time frame that is. We have people here who know what it feels like and smells like, like Corey Enright and Damian Carroll from the Hawks. Ultimately, we’d love the next coach, whenever that is, to come out of the group that is here.’’

Lyon has not spoken to sacked coach Brett Ratten. That’s not his go. He replaced Grant Thomas at St Kilda, he replaced Mark Harvey at Fremantle, he was replaced by Justin Longmuir at the Dockers.

It’s a brutal caper.

“I’m walking into the same seat at the same club, but I hope he’s OK,’’ he said of Ratten.

“I know it, I got sacked. Self-appraisal is no recommendation, but at round 12 we were fifth on the ladder at Fremantle, No. 1 defence and No. 5 attack and then we lost a lot of players.

“But guess what? I could justify it on performance.

“We went four wins, four, eight and nine wins, I can justify that in building the team. But at the end of the day, I think they made the right decision.

“My time was up. So was it harsh (about Ratten), was it brutal? Yeah, but it happened.’’

Lyon has been embraced once again by the Saints. Picture by Michael Klein

Lyon says there will be rough seas ahead at the Saints.

The list is OK.

It needs kids from multiple drafts and more to the point, injuries have hurt this summer. Youngsters like Mitch Owens, Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera, Marcus Windhager and Mattaes Phillipou will get games.

“But they’ve got to earn them,’’ Lyon said.

“My whole model is possibility, anything is possible. We want to be unwavering to process, how to train and what we’re trying to train.

“We want integrity to action, which is, am I giving 100 per cent effort 100 per cent of the time to do things I need to work on to improve? That’s my philosophy.

“Football is not just not a talent game. It’s about action and commitment. Is that easy? No.

“We have to be honest and really committed. I said to the players, win or lose, as long as we stay committed on the effort piece and have continued improvement, we’re fine and we’ll keep plugging until we get here.

“We will play up tempo, we will ask questions of a lot of teams, some teams will answer the question and some teams won’t be able to answer them and we will win the games.’’

He inherits a fluctuating team.

They went 8-3 and then 3-8. They beat Geelong in round 10 and lost to Essendon in round 14. They did not have an identity, let alone consistency.

“I haven’t watched too much footage at all from last year,’’ Lyon said.

“The numbers tell me we were a control and shape and an uncontested-mark team.

“The game has shifted, that’s undisputable. We can really run, we are a very aerobically fit team, as good a team that l’ve coached in the run department.’’

The Saints’ season will start without spearhead Max King. (Photo by Darrian Traynor/Getty Images)

His philosophy revolves around effort.

“I can’t make anyone do anything. I can encourage them and try to help explain the brain science,” he said.

“It’s a simple philosophy. All I say to them is the great players I know, I don’t any of them who didn’t train.’’

Story time:“Speak to Corey Enright about Tommy Hawkins. Sore back, no back, Tommy gets on the track. Barry Hall, all he did was train. David Mundy train. Lachie Neale, he always trains. I was so lucky to have breakfast with Scott Pendlebury and Robert Harvey and someone asked Pendlebury about where pilates sits. He said ‘I always train, always do my weights, I always eat well and I always get to bed early. And if pilates fits, it fits in. Stephen Kernahan is famous for having a beer, but always trained. That’s a simple philosophy.’’

Mental hardness brings physical hardness, he says.

Story time:“I remember Tony Jewell, premiership coach at Richmond. I was a part-time assistant. He brought all the players to the MCG, the third tier of the members, and said, ‘look down, the fans can see when you’re having a dip. The Tigers faithful, all they want to see is you having a dip’. It’s never left me. High-performing teams are high-trust teams, you could see that in Geelong on grand final day.’’

Lyon says his team will be built on mental hardness. (Photo by Quinn Rooney/Getty Images)

So, Lyon is back in his natural habitat. And he’s loving it.

“My daughter said to me, ‘Dad you’ve got to be careful, you were really damaged last time.’’

His daughter is 17.

“I laughed at her. But this feels right,” he said.

“It’s nice to belong. We’re all getting isolated in society, but to work with a group of young people … they want to achieve something.’’

Story time:“I’ll never forget Francis Bourke when he came and spoke when I was a young assistant coach at Richmond. What did he win, five premierships? I’ll never forget it, he said ‘I would give all the medallions back with no guarantees just for the opportunity to work hard with a group of men to try to achieve something. It tells you the joy is in the work and the not the outcome.’’

Originally published as Mark Robinson sits down with Ross Lyon to discuss his return to St Kilda