Australian election 2025: Treasurer Jim Chalmers, shadow Angus Taylor hold debate
Treasurer Jim Chalmers and shadow Angus Taylor held a feisty pre-election debate, but the spectre of US President Donald Trump loomed.
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Jim Chalmers and shadow treasurer Angus Taylor have faced off in a pre-election debate on Australia’s economic future, but the influence of Donald Trump made an appearance.
The US President returned to office in January, immediately embarking on sweeping changes to end government waste and impose tariffs on trading partners, that has caused chaos on the markets.
During the election campaign for the May 3 federal election, Labor has accused the Coalition of mimicking Trump policies, including introducing a spokeswoman for ending government waste, echoing Trump’s Department of Government Efficiency or DOGE.
The Treasurer made sure the comparison was made again during Wednesday night’s debate on Sky News.
‘Dogey:’ Chalmers’ two-word burn to Dutton
Mr Chalmers accused the Opposition of being “full of these DOGE-y sycophants” in a swipe at policies Labor says reflects those of the policies of President Trump.
“(They) have hitched their wagon to American-style slogans and policies and especially cuts which would make Australians worse off,” he said.
“Now, they wonder why nobody believes them when they desperately try to pretend to unhitch their wagon from some of the policies and cuts that we’ve seen in the US.”
Asked about whether Australia should “keep quiet” having scrapped through with 10 per cent tariffs under US Donald Trump’s “Liberation Day” proclamation, Mr Chalmers said the Prime Minister was “speaking up for Australians and standing up for Australia and for our national economic interest”.
“That’s what the Prime Minister has been doing, and our response is all about making our economy more resilient, our markets more diverse, and engaging with the world, including engaging with the Americans,” he said.
Personal question: ‘Glass jaw vs. don’t put the work in”
Personal questions about the their personal attributes also took centre stage.
Moderator Ross Greenwood said the Treasurer’s colleagues had acknowledged him as the “best communicator in your party” and as a “very hard worker,” but said he had issues taking feedback.
“The one thing they say is you got a bit of a glass jaw, that you don’t cop criticism,” he said.
Mr Chalmers admitted he could get “a bit grumpy sometimes.
“I think over time, I’ve learned to understand that you take the good with the bad, and I try and do get a bit grumpy sometimes or not,” Mr Chalmers said.
“I think everyone gets grumpy sometimes, but I don’t think I get grumpy about that necessarily.
“I think I’ve learned over time to focus on the objective observers of the job that I’m doing, and I think ultimately the Australian people will judge that, rather than the kind of partisan commentators from time to time on the opinion pages.”
Mr Taylor also got a similar treatment. Greenwood said while the former cabinet minister was a Rhodes Scholar and “incredibly gifted” and was “many times told you were a future prime minister,” colleagues said that “maybe you don’t put the work in”.
In response, Mr Taylor said: “You know, there’s lots of free advice. You get it. Jim gets it. We all, we all get it.”
“But I tell you what, I work every single day for those hard working Australians who work, you know, in Jim’s an electorate, in my electorate right around Australia, and that, that is what I’m here for.
“As I said earlier, 25 years in business and economics before coming to politics. And the truth is, I learned through that time period that work, hard work, does matter. And I come from a hardworking family.”
Closing arguments
Mr Chalmers closed out the debate with promises of hope in uncertain times, but warned about “secret cuts” under the Coalition.
“We’ve got a lot going for us as Australians, but there’s a lot at stake,” he said.
“This is a really important moment in the global economy, and we get to decide whether we go to the world more resilient under Labor or more vulnerable under the Coalition.”
Mr Chalmers accused Mr Taylor of being unable to “come clean on his secret cuts to pay for his nuclear reactors”.
“He has made the choices really clear, whether we build on the progress that we’ve made together, or whether we take Australia backwards,” the Treasurer said.
“And the choice is there, as I keep coming back to, is Labor helping with the cost of living, cutting income taxes, strengthening Medicare, building more homes, building Australia’s future, making us more resilient in an uncertain world, or higher income taxes and lower wages and secret cuts to pay for nuclear reactors, that’s not an economic plan.
“There could not be a more important time for the responsible economic management which has been the defining feature of this Albanese government.
“And, there could not be a worse time to risk Peter Dutton’s coalition of cuts and chaos, which would make Australians worse off and take Australians backwards because when Peter Dutton cuts every Australian will pay.”
Opposition treasurer Angus Taylor meanwhile spruiked his own credentials while promising voters immediate relief under a Coalition government.
“The key question for this election is, who do you trust to manage the economy?” he said in his closing address.
“We’ve seen in the last three years, Australians have got poorer and it’s clear that Australians can’t afford another three years like the last three.
“Yet that is exactly what Labor is promising.”
Mr Taylor said the Coalition had been laying out a “positive plan to get this country back on track”, which would include beating inflation by “cutting waste” and removing red tape.
“By backing business and backing investment in this country, by fixing our energy market, by getting more supply into the market, fixing housing so that young Australians can hope to buy a house as part of their journey through life in this great country,” he said.
“To give relief at the bowser – 25 cents a litre immediately, not in 18 months away or 15 months time, and of course, to fix our budget so we can protect our nation into the future.
“Before I came into politics, I spent 25 years in business and economics advising people at the highest level in business, starting businesses and working in our family farm.
“I want to take that experience to be the treasurer if I get the opportunity of this great nation to work with every Australian to get our country back on track.”
Chalmers grilled on ‘decade of deficits’
Sky News political editor Andrew Clennell challenged Mr Chalmers on the “decade of deficits” forecasted in this year’s budget handed down in March, just before Anthony Albanese called the election.
Clennell asked whether the deficits forecast meant Labor would need to cut growing spending on the NDIS, public sector wages, and $17bn worth of tax cuts which come in from July 1, 2026.
Mr Chalmers said the budget was now $207bn stronger, and said that meant Labor had “made room for those investments,” like tax cuts, Medicare and other cost-of-living relief.
“The deficit this year is half as big. We’ve made a structural difference to the budget in areas like the NDIS and aged care and also interest costs, and so we are getting the budget in much better,” he said.
However he didn’t address the forecasted deficits, and doesn’t actually role out whether Labor will need to consider future cuts to bring the budget back into surplus.
Chalmers asked to apologise for $275 energy blunder
Mr Chalmers has been called on to “apologise” for Labor’s broken 2022 election promise to bring down electricity bills by $275.
“So what I’m saying is, will you look down the barrel of the camera and apologise for that?” debate moderator, Sky News business editor Ross Greenwood asked.
While Mr Chalmers didn’t quite say the pivotal s-word (sorry) but he did say that: “I take responsibility for all of the decisions that we’ve taken in our budget, including the fact that energy prices, energy bills last year were $300 cheaper because of our energy rebates.
Mr Taylor hit back at that answer.
“Energy bills would have been higher last year if he had had his way.”
Mr Chalmers said the modelling which resulted in the 2022 election price promise was made before Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, and the fact that “Angus intervened to hide a big price rise before the last election”.
Mr Taylor accused Mr Chalmers of looking “for an excuse for everything”.
“He will look for an excuse for everything … Whether you know it’s Vladimir Putin, it’s President Xi, it’s Donald Trump … he’ll use them all,” Mr Taylor said.
“But the one thing he won’t do is accept the people who were promised a $275 reduction in my electorate, and in those areas we just heard from a moment ago, are $1300 a year worse off than was promised.”
“Will you apologise to Australians?”
Mr Taylor used his first question to the Treasurer to give him “another chance” to apologise to Australians over promises to lower energy costs and cost of living at the 2022 ballot.
After a quick gibe, Mr Chalmers told the opposition treasurer that net disposable income was falling when they took office. Now, he claimed, it was “growing again”.
“The reason it’s growing is because of the tax cuts, because we’ve got inflation down, and because we want higher wages, and we’ve delivered higher wages in our economy.
“Now, again, if you really cared about living standards, you wouldn’t have opposed our cost of living measures, and you wouldn’t be taking to this election higher income taxes, lower wages, and secret cuts to pay for the nuclear reactors that you still haven’t mentioned.”
Taylor asked about Coalition cuts to health and education
Now it’s Mr Chalmers’ turn. He asks Mr Taylor to guarantee no cuts will be made to health and education, caching the question that Tony Abbott also made the same promise before the 2013 election before making said cuts after taking government.
Labor has been dining out on this fact all campaign.
Mr Taylor however said that a Coalition government would introduce legislation to “guarantee spending on essential services, including health and education”.
“We will ensure we find the savings that are necessary to get Australians cost of living under control is in those areas I talked about,” he says.
You’ve just made those numbers up’
The two men had a fiery exchange on the cost of living – the central issue of the 2025 federal election.
Mr Chalmers said despite progress on inflation and wages, he acknowledged people were still doing it tough and that cost of living was front and centre of the budget.
That includes tax cuts, energy rebates and the expansion of Medicare.
“If you’re under the pump, Labor is doing more for you to help with the cost of living in an enduring way and in an immediate way what Angus is proposing lower wages, higher taxes and no ongoing help,” Mr Chalmers said.
In response, Mr Taylor spruiked gas injections into the energy sector, as well as the Coalition’s promised cuts to the fuel excise.
“We know the key to that from history is you’ve got to make sure you’ve got a strong economy, strong economic management,” he said.
“That means cutting away, slashing red tape, not essential services, not essential services.
“We have also said that immediate cost of living relief that really works is the focus.”
Mr Chalmers went on to accuse Mr Taylor of fabricating that electricity, gas and insurance had gone up by 30 per cent.
“You’ve just made those numbers up,” Mr Chalmers said.
He also accused the opposition treasurer failing to “come clean” on where cuts the Coalition would make to pay for its $600bn nuclear plan – a number Peter Dutton rejects.
Where would Labor cut?
Mr Chalmers has been asked what budget fat Labor would trim in the event of an economic downturn.
Moderator Ross Greenwood questioned whether Labor would continue its plans to cut student debt by 20 per cent, a policy which will cut about $16bn.
Mr Chalmers says the HECS pledge is staying.
“It’s a very important investment, and we’re proud of it, and we will do it if we win the election in a few weeks,” he said.
However he doesn’t say what areas Labor would cut, which prompts Mr Taylor to attack Labor for its $425bn in extra spending.
Mr Chalmers countered the attack by probing what areas the Coalition would cut to reduce the essential spending.
“If you think $425bn is wasteful, then come clean, look down the barrel of the camera and tell people that pension indexation will go, Medicare will go, natural disaster funding will go,” he said.
Mr Taylor says the Coalition would not cut “essential services,” and references the Coalition’s promise to reduce the public service workforce by 41,000.
“We want to see a better public service, not a bigger public service. Unlike Jim, I spent 25 years of my life working in business and economics, and I learned in that time that you don’t need a bigger team to have a better team.”
‘Lost decade’: Taylor’s swipe at Chalmers’ legacy
Asked about the “heroic assumption” in the budget of a maximum of 4.25 per cent unemployment over the next four years, Mr Chalmers said the “labour market is performed incredibly well on our watch”
“The average unemployment rate under this Albanese government is the lowest of any government,” he said.
“What we’ve been able to do, which is unusual in the world, is get inflation much lower than what we inherited from Angus at the same time as we maintain very low unemployment.
“Of course, if the economy slows dramatically, there are implications for employment.
“But, because of what we’ve been able to achieve together as Australians over the course of the last three years, we’re stronger than many other countries when it comes to the labour market, and that’s really important.”
In response, Mr Taylor said the budget did not have the standard of living going to what it was at when Labor came into power until 2030.
“This is a lost decade that you’re overseeing, a lost decade, and Australians deserve better,” Mr Taylor said.
The opposition treasurer accused Mr Chalmers of “nonsense”, stating that GDP per capita had gone backwards for 21 months in a row.
“The result of that is our household standard of living, what our incomes can buy in terms of goods and services, has collapsed in an unprecedented way, 7.9 per cent since you came into government,” he said.
“The buffers are gone. If you look at household budgets, they’re deep into digging into their savings.”
Will Aus go into a recession? Chalmers and Taylor disagree
Mr Taylor and Mr Chalmers have clashed on whether Australia will go into a recession following the US tariff war.
Opposition Leader Peter Dutton says we will if we continue under a Labor government, however, Mr Chalmers has labelled that a lie.
“We don’t expect that,” said Mr Chalmers.
“That’s what I said earlier in the week, and Peter Dutton has lied about that multiple times since then.”
Mr Chalmers said he expected Australia’s GDP to grow, and there was “more room to move in the budget” due to Labor’s economic handling, pointing to Labor’s two surpluses.
However over the four-year forward estimates, Australia is set to record a string of deficits, with the budget not set to go back to black until 2034-35.
Opening Gambits
Treasurer Jim Chalmers kicked off the debate with a refrain any election watcher has already heard dozens of times.
“These are uncertain times in the world,” he said.
“But, Australia is well placed and well prepared because of our economic plan, but also because of the progress that we have made together as Australians.”
Since coming to office, Mr Chalmers said inflation had come down, while wages and living standards had started to grow.
“We’ve got the debt down, and growth is rebounding solidly in our economy as well, so all of this puts us in good stead in uncertain times.
“But, we know that there’s much more work to do, because we do understand that people are still under pressure, and we know that the global environment is so uncertain.
“That’s why our economic plan is so important, and it’s why we seek a second term to do justice to the progress that Australians have made together in our first our economic plan is about helping with the cost of living, cutting taxes and making the Australian economy more resilient in uncertain times.”
Taylor: Australia are worse off now
Coalition shadow treasurer Angus Taylor immediately went on the attack, saying “Australians are worse off than they were just three years ago,” and highlighting lowering standard of living.
It’s a key message voters are set have been hearing and will continue to hear till May 3 – the date of the federal election.
“Now Labor promised the world. They promised lower electricity prices, they promised lower mortgage costs. They promised a lower cost of living in easier lives. The reality has been different,” Mr Taylor said.
“Prices are up, debt is up, deficits are up, spending is up, taxes are up, but the one thing that is down and has collapsed is Australian standard of living that’s fallen more than ever before any history, more than any of our peer countries around the world.”
New challenges from Trump tariffs
The debate between the two, to air on Sky News from 7.30pm AEST, comes as the world economy is being rocked US President Donald Trump’s tariffs regimen.
Global markets, including the ASX 200, have faced days of volatile trading with trillions of dollars wiped, causing concern for companies, superannuation accounts and world trade.
The Australian economy has started to improve, with inflation down to 2.4 per cent – within the Reserve Bank’s target of 2-3 per cent – and interest rates finally being cut to 4.1 per cent.
But growth in the economy is still weak.
The cost-of-living crunch is hurting many household and businesses and is being cited as one of the key election issues.
Mr Chalmers has said the Labor government has steadied the ship over its first three years and now was not the time to “cut and run”.
He has said the Albanese government has provided cost-of-living relief, including power rebates and another round of tax cuts – to come into effect in July 2026, which the opposition opposed.
Mr Taylor has said the Albanese government has been wasteful and kept inflation and interest rates higher for longer because of its policies.
The Coalition wants to repeal the tax cuts in the March budget and has focused on reducing energy bills through extra supply of gas and cutting the fuel excise for 12 months as faster ways to help Aussies.
It also has promised to target government spending, but is yet to provide details.
Wednesday’s treasurers’ debate follows the first leaders’ debate in which 100 undecided voters gave Prime Minister Anthony Albanese the win over Opposition Leader Peter Dutton, 44-35, with 21 undecided.
Originally published as Australian election 2025: Treasurer Jim Chalmers, shadow Angus Taylor hold debate
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