‘I never caved in’: Ita Buttrose responds to the ABC’s fiercest critics

In a wide-ranging interiew as she steps down as ABC chair, Ita Buttrose responds to her critics, reveals whether she still encounters the boys club - and why she thinks Joe Biden should retire.

Few women in Australian media – or, for that matter, the country’s public sphere as a whole – have exerted as much influence or blazed as many trails as Ita Buttrose.

By turns forceful and feminine, witty and uncompromising, the 82-year-old publishing veteran has been a beacon for women navigating changing social mores.

As she prepares to step down from her role as chair of the ABC this week (just two days ahead of International Women’s Day on Friday), Buttrose joins editor-in-chief Sarrah Le Marquand on Stellar’s podcast Something To Talk About for a frank discussion about the turbulence that has defined her final months at the ABC, whether she harbours any regrets when she takes stock of her six-decade career – and the “evil trio” she spearheads on shopping trips with her granddaughters.

‘I can’t talk about it.’ Ita Buttrose on the departure of Antoinette Lattouf from the ABC. Picture: Damian Bennett for Stellar

Your five-year tenure as chair of the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) comes to an end this week, on March 6. A role so high profile and complex was always going to bring unique challenges, perhaps none more so than in recent events following the departure of Antoinette Lattouf from a short-term contract filling in on ABC Radio Sydney late last year [Lattouf claims she was unlawfully terminated], after she shared a post on social media about the war in Gaza. That matter is before the Fair Work Commission, so I understand you may be limited in what you can say …

Not only limited. I can’t talk about it.

Does such a controversial chapter of the ABC’s recent history coinciding with the end of your term take a bit of the shine off the past five years?

I think you’re trying to find a very clever way to get me to talk about what I can’t talk about. I simply cannot talk about that matter.

Is there anything you wish to say in response to accusations levelled by some – including from ABC staff – that this incident has shown that the national broadcaster can be influenced by powerful lobby groups, and its independence can be undermined?

The role of independence of the national broadcaster is paramount to what we do. It’s enshrined in legislation. The ABC and I have never been influenced by outside lobbyists, people passionate about their particular cause as politicians, commercial interests, you name it. The ABC has never caved in. I’ve never caved in. Neither has the managing director nor the board.

Listen to the full interview with Ita Buttrose on Stellar’s podcast, Something To Talk About:

It is a matter of public record that in August of last year, you announced you would not seek a second term as ABC chair. Yet when the prime minister held a press conference in January to announce your successor [media executive Kim Williams] there were media reports such as “Anthony Albanese announces Ita Buttrose will leave ABC chair position”. Is it frustrating knowing some people assumed your departure was because of the recent controversy?

Well, some people are members of the media, and I would suggest to you that they’re not well enough informed, and if I was going to be critical of younger members of the media – and maybe older, but I suspect we’re talking about younger – it’s that they don’t research well enough the topics on which they’re going to make pronouncements. And, you know, I did notify the government and the minister Michelle Rowland in August last year that I was not going to seek another term. Five years is quite a long time to serve the ABC. I know some chairs have gone on and done a second term, but I’m conscious that I’m a woman of a certain age. And despite [US president] Joe Biden thinking he should run another term – I don’t think he should – sometimes you need to examine yourself and say, “Well, I am a person of a certain age and everything’s fine, and cognitively I’m good” but still, weigh it up. Another five years. What would it be like? You have to know in yourself when you need to step aside. I felt that. It had nothing to do with any current events.

Picture: Damian Bennett for Stellar

Is there a part of you that feels there will be a perception among some that you have left with unfinished business?

If that’s their perception, they’re wrong. I can’t help what happens in the time that I’ve told the minister I’m not renewing my term and what’s going on now. The ABC is never still; there’s always something happening. Kim Williams will be a very robust chair. I don’t think he’s a shrinking violet, and I’m sure he – like me – is used to this kind of activity. I am so glad the current government put a chair in with media experience. I think I was the first chair

that had extensive media experience, and Kim Williams is similar – and that can only be good for the national broadcaster.

Do you have any advice for Kim Williams?

I wouldn’t dream of giving Kim Williams advice. He’s his own man.

‘I don’t have regrets!’ Ita Buttrose. Picture: Ryan Osland

In your time at the ABC, what have been some stand-out memories? What are you most proud of?

I think when I arrived I bought rigour, stability and governance. The ABC had suffered organisational management problems of a strange nature, where you had a chair and a managing director who were not talking to each other directly. You think, how on earth did this develop? So what I did was try to restore – I not only tried, I did – stability. I reorganised the board, I put the governance back into the organisation and I think that was a very positive thing. We now make content for digital, whereas before we used to make it for broadcast. I’ve encouraged the five-year plan so everybody knows what we’re doing – the government, as well as ourselves. I think those are the most important things.

Any do-overs or regrets?

I don’t have regrets. You make decisions and you hope to God they’re going to work out.

Ita Buttrose is on the cover of Stellar, out Sunday. Picture: Damian Bennett for Stellar

In 2022, you delivered the annual Andrew Olle Media Lecture and you said: “Good journalists always will be society’s fact-seekers and truth-tellers. It is never about lecturing the public on what they should think. Good journalism is about reporting, just the facts – not opinion.”

How have you, throughout your career, navigated the line between commentary and facts, and when did you first notice this increased blurring of the lines start to creep in?

I think social media has been the culprit here. Everybody feels they must share, God help us. They share the most ridiculous things, they must tell you what their opinion is and half the time you think, but I’m not really interested. We talk about trivialising the news, and I’m sure it’s got to do with the fact that so much news is trivial. I’ve put that down to social media. Instagram is a perfect culprit. TikTok. All of them, really.

I want to ask about your thoughts on the tone of public discourse today. Over the past 10 years, it seems the tolerance for any discrepancy in life experience or views has become non-existent; there’s a hyper-partisan culture and it’s only getting worse. What’s your view on this?

I agree with you. I mean, you can’t disagree with anybody. If you do, you’re racist or sexist or whatever. And you just think, why can’t we just agree to disagree? You’ve got to be so careful because you might upset someone. What I find about current discussion in the public, it’s so uncivil. Why is everyone so nasty? I don’t know what’s happened to people. I don’t know how we correct it. Maybe we have to be brave, continue to disagree and not let the vocal minority drown out the vocal majority.

Ita Buttrose with ABC managing director David Anderson in 2021. Picture: Ryan Osland

On a lighter note, in Leigh Sales’ Andrew Olle Media Lecture last year, she told a great anecdote about how she once parked in your car spot at the ABC and she returned to find a beautifully written note under her windscreen wiper, reading “Please DON’T” – in capital letters and double underlined – “park in my car spot again”. Stapled to it was a business card that read Ita Buttrose AC OBE. Did you have cause to leave many notes like that?

No, I didn’t. Because the car park was full, she parked in my spot. So there was nowhere for me to park, was there? Was I angry? Yes, I was. I left a note.

And where did you park?

I parked her in, actually, and then I left before her. I don’t think I told her I parked her in.

A lot of people would be daunted by Ita Buttrose AC OBE. Do you consider yourself to be intimidating?

No. Do you find me intimidating?

I definitely think you have an aura about you. I walked into the studio today thinking, oh, my hair’s a little bit messy. I’m not worried about the cameras, just concerned Ita might think, “Oh, Sarrah, you could have brushed your hair.”

Come along, you know me better than that …

This Friday is International Women’s Day. Every year we hear people ask: do we still really need an International Women’s Day? What’s your answer to that?

It’s good to reflect on how far we’ve come, because a lot of younger women don’t realise all the things that we’ve managed to change. It’s also timely to reflect on how far we have to go. The government now has a national policy on gender equality and that’s a good thing, because the progress is still too slow. The thing, really, that men in particular have to absorb is that when we talk about women being ignored, or their opinions being overlooked, or gender bias happening at interviews … do they want an equal playing field for their daughters when they go out into the world after their university degree – at which they outnumber men – or do they want them to be blocked? We need to make sure that boys and girls have equal opportunities, because I’ve got both. You want the opportunities to be there for both of

them, so they can lead fulfilled lives.

I have always thought it was ridiculous, this concept that the success of one gender has to come at the expense of another.

Absolutely, and it’s really important that women – and I find it extraordinary that I still have to say this today – realise how good they are. A lot of women still don’t. Every now and again, a woman that’s quite high up the ladder and has all the potential in the world almost takes my breath away when she says something and I think, oh my word, do you realise how good you are? Do you realise what you could do? Do you realise what you’ve achieved?

Have you ever had that voice of self-doubt that a lot of women suffer from?

Not really. I’ve taken roles and then thought, what have I done? And then something inside of me says, you can do this, and you are going to do it. I suppose the more you go on and the more you do, the more at ease you are with the various things you take on.

As a female chair, you’re still in a minority in this country. And you’ve encouraged more women to put themselves forward, but you’ve also noted the male network is very strong. Is the boys’ club as strong as it once was? Do you still encounter it yourself at this point in your career?

No. I don’t encounter it, but I think I observe it. It’s certainly still there. It’s not as strong as it used to be, but it’s fair to say some women are discriminated against because of their age, their nationality, their skin colour. I think that bias still exists. Just have a look at the board make-up; you can see for yourself. Mind you, men suffer the same. We’re not a great embracer of diversity in the boardroom, I don’t think.

The cover shoot of Stellar accompanying this conversation captures a very feminine style. Fabulous nails, beautiful jewellery … You’ve never shied away from that, and yet a lot of strong, successful women in positions of leadership feel they can’t be too feminine.

If you have to sacrifice your femininity to get on, you’re failing. I love my nails. I think well-kept nails are a sign of elegance. It’s fair to say I’m feminine. I like being who I am and what I am.

What’s next for you, personally and professionally?

I recently took on the chair of the Advisory [Committee] of the Centre for Healthy Brain Ageing at the University of New South Wales. I would love to be a part of or contribute to a cure or a really effective slowing down of dementia. I’ve still got other causes that I work with [macular degeneration and osteoporosis] and I still work for Dementia Australia. I think I would probably be looking at something else to do with publishing, but I haven’t made my mind up yet.

Last time we spoke, you said you might write a book. Want to give me the scoop on what it might be about?

I haven’t made my mind up. I just can’t because I’m so busy finalising everything. I’m just going to take a breath and see what else happens. I’ve got five grandchildren now [Elyse, Clare, Jack, Byron and Samantha] and I like spending time with them. The girls discovered they like shopping as much as Grandma does. It’s an evil trio, really, when we go out.

Are there things you still want to achieve?

I feel somewhere deep inside of me that there’s something else waiting for me. I don’t know what it is. Whether it’s going to be as big as chairing an organisation like the ABC … I think that’s a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I’m honoured to have had the chance. But I think there’s something. I’ll let you know when I find it.

Listen to the full interview with Ita Buttrose on Stellar’s podcast, Something To Talk About:

Originally published as ‘I never caved in’: Ita Buttrose responds to the ABC’s fiercest critics