Penrith Panthers coach Ivan Cleary reveals why Phil Gould sacked him in 2015 and their cold war relationship
Four-time premiership winning coach Ivan Cleary has revealed he hasn’t spoken to Phil Gould - the man who sacked him in 2015 - since mid-2019. Cleary opens up to DAVID RICCIO in most uncomfortable interview he has ever done.
Ivan Cleary is the Penrith coach you see on TV hugging his famous son Nathan and flashing four NRL premiership rings.
An undisputed champion leader of young men, Cleary steered the Panthers to a historic fourth consecutive title last Sunday night, a remarkable feat that his rivals can only dream of.
The images we could never imagine are of Cleary struggling to get out of bed, weighed down by depression and wanting to give it all up.
For the first time, the 53-year-old has gone where it makes him feel uncomfortable, wanting to show that he’s far from infallible by speaking publicly about his mental health struggles in a passionate bid to save the lives of Australian men.
“The thing about men is, we just don’t talk about depression,’’ Cleary said.
“You feel like you’re a failure if you do.
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“And you know, there’s this thing that you’ve got to be strong enough to be able to carry the can and get through it.
“I’m going to talk about men in this instance, where they have this responsibility to be the breadwinner for their family or just have other struggles in their lives.
“But it doesn’t mean you’re not resilient and or not tough, just because you need to talk it through.
“And often just talking about it actually helps, you realise that other people are going through it and, and that can sometimes just give you the kick along to keep going.
“I love the movement of particularly men, where even locally here we have in Penrith, the men’s walk and talk mental health association that’s been really building over time and helping so many guys get through this.
“It’s just something I think we all need to talk more about.
“I wasn’t keen (to discuss this) because it is obviously very private and personal, but it’s so relevant to so many people.
“We’re starting to talk about it more, and I think that’s important. I was struggling big time.’’
IVAN’S PAIN
Weighed down by the pressure of failure, unable to communicate his feelings or cope with the unrelenting scrutiny of his high-profile son, Cleary recalls not being able to get out of bed.
“I actually started taking antidepressants,’’ Cleary said.
In May, 2019, just two months into his first season of a five-year contract at Penrith, Cleary felt like his life was unravelling.
A reserved, insular and private character, Cleary hid the mental torment from his players.
But with a front-row seat to her husband’s pain, it would take the encouragement of his wife Bec for the four-time premiership-winning coach to seek help.
“I recall not wanting to get out of bed a couple of times in my career before that, so it was starting to dawn on me what I was experiencing,’’ Cleary said.
“I was getting some awareness that I actually needed help.
“I actually ended up looking back (at my life) and realised that I’d (previously) felt signs of depression. I was struggling big time.
“One of my brothers helped me. He’d been through a lot in his own personal life and obviously my wife was constantly talking to me about it.’’
The catalyst was Cleary’s move back to Penrith following a “messy” two-year stint at the Wests Tigers in 2017-2018.
Cleary had coached the Panthers between 2012 and 2015 before GM of football Phil Gould decided that he “looked tired” and needed to be sacked.
In his soon to be released book, Not Everything Counts But Everything Matters, Cleary explains how he only agreed to return to the Panthers on the premise that Gould had none of the control over him that existed during his first stint as Penrith coach.
Cleary speaks openly about his fallout with Gould.
Cleary salutes Gould for all he did for Penrith, but reveals how their two-decade relationship deteriorated, which culminated in his sacking in 2015, then reached an all-time low when Cleary returned to the Panthers.
Cleary says he felt Gould was trying to undermine him when on TV, the former Panthers boss explained why he wanted Wayne Bennett and that he had nothing to do with Cleary returning to Penrith.
“He did so much good for me, but he hurt me too,’’ Cleary writes.
Cleary also reveals he hasn’t spoken to Gould since mid-2019, although he admits that he would have no issue engaging with the Nine commentator if their paths did cross.
Despite the club agreeing to Cleary’s request that Gould have zero authority over him, Cleary hit rock bottom in that first season back at Penrith, with his team managing just two wins from their first 10 matches.
It almost broke him, admitting that it led to thoughts that he may walk away from the game altogether.
“That was extremely hard for me at that time in my life,’’ Cleary said.
“Leaving the Wests Tigers and basically telling them that I wanted to leave, it still doesn’t sit that well with me.
“Although 100 per cent it was in my heart that I wanted to come back. It was an easy thing for me to want to do, but it was a difficult situation.
“I remember my wife saying a couple of times, ‘Why don’t you just stay (at the Wests Tigers), it’s all too hard (to return to Penrith).
“And I’m like, yeah, it’s like it is this calling, you know?
“I still feel so grateful that (former Penrith chairman) Dave O’Neill asked me for coffee that day and really put his own reputation on the line because it was controversial.
“When I came back initially, things weren’t working out.
“Nathan wasn’t playing well, I felt guilty about that.
“There was so much scrutiny and it certainly wasn’t positive.
“I think we’d lost six in a row and we were on the bottom of the ladder.
“I was in the first year of a five-year contract. I honestly didn’t feel like I was the right man for the job, which was a lot to deal with because of how much I wanted to come back and how much it felt right.
“But just that whole thing around the messy exit from the Tigers, plus we were going a lot worse than what the club was previously before I came back.
“If we didn’t succeed in 2020, I was going to give it away.
“Honestly. I wasn’t going to take the money to keep going. If we didn’t succeed in 2020, I clearly wasn’t the right man for the job.
“The relationship with Nathan and my coaching of him wouldn’t have been working and I didn’t want to burden his career on that as well.
“At the time, I would have (walked away from the game). I don’t know where I would have gone next, I really wasn’t worrying about the future.’’
HEY BOYS, SPEAK-UP
Cleary says that by speaking openly to his wife, brother and health professionals about his struggles, he no longer felt alone.
The pressure also began to subside when the team managed to find consecutive wins.
From his battles, Cleary said he has used his dark times as experience to encourage both Nathan and the entire Panthers team to find their voice when they too, are struggling with the pressure from fans, social media and family expectations.
“I’ve tried to be open about it (mental health) with our players. As a club, we try to share vulnerabilities like that,’’ Cleary said.
“Social media is such a big thing for players. I’m not on it.
“I can’t fathom how you can navigate that. Nathan’s been open about it himself, about going through his own troubles.
“He even said that he was paralysed at times by fear of other people’s opinions and how they were seeing him play.
“He was playing games and even during games he’d sometimes be thinking about what people would think about what he’s just done.
“It’s been a real learning curve for him with experience.
“It’s great to see him growing as a man in that sense.
“And not just him.
“I think it’s no fluke that some of these performances that our boys have had in pressure situations have been part of all that growth to be able to handle that sort of pressure, not just on the field, but through social media and other people’s expectations and opinions.
“That growth too, to see those guys handling that, which helps in their own lives, their family lives, bringing up their kids is crazy, it’s pretty cool.’’
SON IN THE SPOTLIGHT
Cleary claims that his 26-year-old son, the champion Penrith halfback, still hasn’t played his best football.
“No way,’’ Cleary said about Nathan.
“I think he’s played his best football of his career this year, he just hasn’t had that much of it (due to injuries).
“I know he was really looking forward to being part of the State of Origin series this year and obviously missed that, so I think that’s definitely something he really wants to be a bigger part of next year.
“He’s putting more into his game than he ever has, in terms of his understanding of how his body works, getting himself prepared, it’s exciting times.
“His life off the field is changing and that’s good for him as well.’’
Cleary said that he’s in awe of how Nathan and his partner, Matildas star Mary Fowler, have navigated their relationship to a backdrop of mass public interest.
“He’s done an amazing job. Both of them have,’’ Cleary said.
“It was pretty crazy at the start, when they’re getting chased by paparazzi.
“They’ve somehow been able to control it all at their own pace.’’
Nathan flew to England on Friday to spend time with Fowler where she’s playing with Manchester City, before returning home for shoulder surgery.
Asked if Nathan was any chance of joining Fowler in the UK long-term, Cleary laughed: “Who knows? But not in the near future, no.’’
PANTHER PARTY
The flags and streamers are still flying high in the suburbs of Penrith with a neighbour just two doors down from Cleary’s home sporting a huge poster of Nathan’s head on their garage.
From celebrating long and hard with the players and their families, to a club presentation night and coaching staff-only drinks in The Rocks, Cleary also spent five hours signing autographs for 2024 premiership memorabilia on Wednesday.
With the departure of premiership mainstays Jarome Luai and James Fisher-Harris next season, Cleary said the vibe felt more like a farewell party, compared to the previous three premiership parties.
“I’m feeling extremely happy. It’s a little bit surreal,’’ Cleary said.
“I just can’t even fathom that we’ve won a fourth premiership.
“It’s been a really fun week, but it’s also been a little bit sad. With some of the boys that are leaving, they’ve been real integral parts of what we’ve done.
“And they’ve been around here for many years.
“As much as we don’t want them to leave, we’ve actually used it as a bit of a superpower.
“I know it gets tossed around that we’re a bit like family, but when you understand Jarome and Nathan have played together since they were 14 and just little spindly kids and now they’re men, Jarome has three beautiful kids, that makes it all that more special.’’
COACHING SECRETS
Cleary needed convincing to pen Not Everything Counts But Everything Matters.
A deeply private man who takes pride in his team keeping everything in-house, the process of revealing intimate details about his coaching philosophies and style of leadership tested his fortitude.
At one point in the book, Cleary peels back the curtain on how paramount he views the body language of his players during games and how his players are instructed to avoid putting their hands on their knees or heads when fatigued, a clear indication to the opposition that the Panthers are physically hurting, he writes.
He writes in great detail on the values that it takes to being a Panther; “If you’re not in condition to be fit enough to be able to play the way we value, you won’t play for us,’’ he writes.
Cleary also lifts the lid on why he’s so committed on providing “psychological safety’’ for his players.
“You can have any skin colour, come from any background, wear your hair long, short or green. I don’t care,’’ Cleary says.
“As long as you follow the values of our club, you can be you. I want you to turn up and know that the only thing you will be judged on is your football.
“Part of making the environment at our club safe is our commitment to learn about each other.
“At the start of each day of pre-season training, for instance, our wellbeing manager interviews someone in front of the team. It could be a staff member, a player, whoever.
“We’ve had plenty of tears. It’s a really powerful exercise.’’
Asked how he felt about exposing his coaching model to the world, Cleary replied: “It’s totally out of my comfort zone.
“It’s still something that I’m not that comfortable with, especially as it’s (book) getting closer to launching.
“The reason I thought I could share a few secrets is that so many coaches and players have left our club and they know what we’re doing.
“The thing is, it’s one thing to know, but it’s another thing to do it.
“All that sort of stuff is a long way from what I thought I would ever do, I never thought I’d be telling these sorts of stories.
“I don’t even know how it happened. I think I just got asked a couple of times, and all of a sudden it was like, I suppose I have a story to tell.
“I never really ever pictured myself as someone who would have a book written about them.
“It’s more about leadership and one of the reasons I wanted to write the book and tell my story is, I feel like it’s pretty normal.
“There’s nothing flash or super amazing about it, it’s just persistence and yeah it’s four premierships now, but I think it was 14 years before I won one.
“I didn’t win one as a player as well. So that’s 26-years of being in the NRL until I actually won a premiership.
“So it hasn’t all been smooth sailing and I think it can apply to not just sport, but in business, I think there’s some principles that can add up and help others.
“Obviously the father-son thing with Nathan is another factor.
“Just about every junior sporting team in Australia, there would be a father-son or mother-son, mother-daughter, father-daughter relationship.
“So hopefully they can get something out of that as well.
“But yeah, it’s not comfortable.’’
FIVE IN 2025
Cleary has watched his team’s grand final win over the Melbourne Storm twice already.
It’s an indication of a coach that despite not wanting to think about next season just yet, loves winning and is determined to continue the club’s extraordinary dominance in 2025.
“I was asked last year if we could win four and I probably didn’t answer it emphatically,’’ Cleary said.
“But yeah, I think we can win it again next year.
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“It’s another new challenge, totally.
“But with every year, fundamentally we should get more familiar with our system, we evolve a little bit more, our key players are still in the prime of their career, so they should get better.
“That chemistry continues to evolve each and every year, so the answer is yes, we can.’’
Originally published as Penrith Panthers coach Ivan Cleary reveals why Phil Gould sacked him in 2015 and their cold war relationship
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