NSW Premier’s top staffer James Cullen reveals no notes were taken in police briefings on Dural caravan hoax

The NSW Premier’s chief of staff has admitted no notes were taken by the Premier’s department in police briefings about the Dural caravan hoax.

NSW Premier Chris Minns’ top staffer James Cullen has admitted that no notes were taken by the Premier’s department in police briefings about the Dural caravan hoax.

Mr Cullen faced a fiery parliamentary inquiry after he and other staffers had refused to appear and talk about what they knew about the fake plot and new hate speech laws until threatened with arrest.

One committee member, Nationals member Wes Fang, questioned Mr Cullen on if he was aware of his requirements as the chief of staff under the State Records Act.

But in a tense exchange Mr Cullen asked Mr Fang if his question was “do we take notes in briefings from police? I mean, can we just, we could have done this 20 minutes ago.”

Mr Cullen eventually conceded that he did not take notes during the police briefings about the explosives-laden caravan in Sydney’s northwest that was initially feared to be part of a terror plot but later revealed to be a hoax.

However, he insisted that these were not “decision-making meetings”, and as such he did not need to take notes – instead, he said, it was “entirely appropriate” for NSW Police to be the agency keeping notes in the meetings.

Police Minister Yasmin Catley’s deputy chief of staff Tilly South, chief of staff Ross Nielson, Chris Minns' chief of staff James Cullen, deputy chief of staff Edward Ovadia, and media chief Sarah Michael. Picture: NewsWire/ Rohan Kelly

“It was an ongoing investigation, you know, no one was experiencing dementia. We clearly knew that there was a lot of investigation unfolding and so it didn’t need a refresher at the start of every conversation,” Mr Cullen said.

Mr Fang hammered Mr Cullen over who decided that the briefings be “pens-down meetings”, insisting that the Premier’s office failed its obligations under the Act.

Inquiry chairman and independent MLC Rod Roberts said the committee found it “extraordinary” that “not a single note” was kept on such a significant national security event.

Other senior staffers from the offices of Mr Minns and Police Minister Yasmin Catley also appeared on Friday before the inquiry following similar threats of arrest.

Summonses were issued for Mr Cullen and Mr Minns’ deputy chief of staff Edward Ovadia, director of media Sarah Michael as well as Ms Catley’s chief and deputy chiefs of staff, Ross Nielson and Tilly South, to appear.

All five staffers were sworn in and faced intense questioning over their decision not to attend the earlier hearing.

Committee member Sue Higginson asked Mr Cullen whether he knew it would be contempt to not follow the summons, while Ms Michael and Mr Nielson were asked whether they were “untroubled” by their earlier decision not to attend the inquiry and whether they had to “follow the law”.

Staffers for NSW Premier Chris Minns have started fronting the Dural caravan inquiry. Picture: NewsWire / Nikki Short

“I thought we weren’t in breach of the law by not attending,” Mr Nielson said.

The committee moved to question the staffers on the substantive issue of the inquiry, whether they were aware the caravan incident was a hoax before it was used as a reason to pass anti-terror legislation.

“I think the relationship that’s been constructed by some between the Dural caravan event and the … passage of those three pieces of legislation, I think is extremely unfortunate and unfair,” Mr Cullen said.

He insisted that work on some of the legislation began in the December before the caravan hoax, and said that reform had been flagged on all three laws before the incident.

Mr Cullen was asked when he was made aware the Dural caravan incident was a criminal hoax, rather than an act of terrorism, and if he recalled who provided the Premier with the “media line” that “there is only one way of calling it out, and that is terrorism”.

“The Premier is very much capable of coming up with his own lines,” Mr Cullen said.

“I can understand the interest in the word terrorism,” he conceded.

He said Mr Minns “took a view” based on the advice available from police at the time.

Later in the inquiry, Mr Cullen said the language of terrorism was not “dreamt up” by Mr Minns but was from briefings from NSW Police.

There were fiery exchanges between MLC Rod Roberts and Mr Cullen. Picture: NewsWire/ Rohan Kelly

However, Mr Roberts quizzed Mr Cullen that the only person who had used the word “terrorism” to describe the incident was Mr Minns, not senior police officers David Hudson and Karen Webb.

Mr Roberts asked why Mr Minns had said in a press conference that there was no other way of calling this out other than terrorism when the lead investigator had said there were “alternatives to terrorism”.

“I watched that news and I believed what the Premier told me,” Mr Roberts said.

“How does that provide calm?

The public gallery watches on. Picture: NewsWire/ Rohan Kelly

Mr Roberts later asked Ms Michael whether she helped write the Premier’s statement that Mr Roberts had not voted for the anti-terror legislation.

Ms Michaels said that it “may have been an error from the Premier”.

There was a vocal reaction from the committee members when Labor member Emily Suvaal said the question would be better directed to the Premier – Mr Minns has so far refused to appear before the committee.

Two staffers for Police Minister Yasmin Catley will also attend. Picture: NewsWire / Nikki Short

Mr Roberts confirmed on Wednesday that the staffers would attend the special hearing on Friday after Legislative Council president Ben Franklin ruled it was within his right to seek warrants for their arrest.

Mr Roberts said he “welcomed” the decision of the staff to reverse their decision and attend the inquiry, but said it was “extremely disappointing” that the committee had to take the steps it did to hear from the witnesses.

Tensions heated up when Mr Cullen attempted to offer advice to Mr Roberts as to how the committee should be run, and that some lines of questioning should have been provided earlier.

Mr Roberts said “this is my committee” and “I don’t tell you how to run your office, understand?”

Mr Roberts confirmed on Wednesday the staffers would attend the special hearing. Picture: NewsWire / John Appleyard

Mr Minns has refused to front the public inquiry and on Wednesday afternoon slammed the arrest threat as a “dangerous precedent” and accused the Legislative Council committee of calling the staffers as a “punitive measure”.

“I think that the very troubling information that staff would be arrested and held potentially overnight via police custody is a massive overreach,” he said, going on to accuse the committee of being what was “close to a kangaroo court”.

Mr Minns also accused inquiry members of showing “inherent bias”.

The inquiry has been a flashpoint between the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council, where Labor relies on support from the crossbench.

It seeks to establish who knew what and when about the Dural caravan, an explosives-laden caravan found in Sydney’s north earlier this year, and any connection with the passing of controversial anti-hate and anti-protest laws in February.

Mr Minns initially described the caravan as having the potential of having caused a “mass casualty event”, though police later alleged it was part of an elaborate criminal conspiracy that involved other alleged anti-Semitic attack in Sydney.

Mr Roberts told 2GB on Wednesday an undertaking had been given that the staff would attend after Mr Franklin sought legal advice from Brett Walker SC, one of the country's foremost experts on constitutional law issues.

He described the reversal as a “very big backdown”.

It comes amid a separate inquiry into anti-Semitism in NSW.