'Will you shut up?': Donald Trump and Joe Biden bicker during debate

Americans could barely believe what they were seeing as today's debate between Donald Trump and Joe Biden turned extraordinarily ugly.

Sam Clench

@SamClench

less than 2 min read

September 30, 2020 - 8:08AM

US Presidential debate turns ugly: Wildest moments from Trump and Biden's first debate

The first US presidential debate turned extraordinarily ugly today, as Donald Trump and Joe Biden hurled insults and repeatedly spoke over each other.

The two candidates have been slagging each other off in public for months, but this was their first face-to-face meeting, and it quickly went off the rails.

Moderator Chris Wallace struggled to maintain control as Mr Trump in particular repeatedly interrupted both he and Mr Biden.

"I guess I'm debating you, not him. That's OK, I'm not surprised," the President remarked at one point, addressing Wallace.

You can read all about the key moments in our blog below.

When the debate ended and the US TV networks cut back to their studios for analysis, several of the anchors and political experts seemed shellshocked by what they had just witnessed.

NBC anchor Lester Holt, who has moderated presidential debates in the past, described it as a "low point in American political discourse".

"Frankly, I'm a bit at loss for words here to describe what we've just witnessed," Holt said.

"I think we just need to pause for a moment and say, that was crazy. What was that?" said his colleague Savannah Guthrie.

Over on ABC, George Stephanopoulos said he had never seen a worse debate in his life.

"I have to speak personally here, as somebody who's watched presidential debates for 40 years, as someone who has moderated presidential debates, as someone who has prepared candidates for presidential debates," said Stephanopoulos.

"That was the worst presidential debate I have ever seen in my life."

The network's White House correspondent, Jon Karl, agreed that the debate was "a total mess".

They were even harsher on CNN.

"That was the worst debate I have ever seen. It wasn't even a debate. It was a disgrace," said anchor Jake Tapper.

He labelled it "a hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a trainwreck".

"That was a s***show," said his colleague Dana Bash.

"That is really the phrase I'm getting from people on both sides of the aisle on text, and it's the only phrase I can think of to describe it."

It was certainly unlike any other debate I've witnessed. Read on for all the highlights - and lowlights.

Updates

Trump hits out at moderator

The President clearly feels he was debating both Joe Biden and moderator Chris Wallace today.

There has been heavy criticism of Wallace's management of the debate, as we've written about here. He did interrupt the candidates a lot, and he asked a lot of follow-up questions – at times it felt more like a one-on-one interview.

To be fair, I'm not sure how else he was supposed to handle it, given Mr Trump and Mr Biden wouldn't stop talking/shouting over each other. Any moderator would have struggled.

pic.twitter.com/HUSFkHqsyC
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 30, 2020

Did Trump fail to condemn white supremacy?

I gave you a rough transcript of this exchange earlier, but given it's the one getting the most attention from Mr Trump's critics, I thought I'd go back and do a more thorough job.

At issue is whether the President failed to condemn white supremacists.

Wallace: "Are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia groups-"

Trump: "Sure."

Wallace: "-and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities, as we saw in Kenosha and as we've seen in Portland?"

Trump: "Sure, I'm willing to do that."

Biden: "Then do it."

Wallace: "Then go ahead, sir."

Trump: "But I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing."

Wallace: "So what are you, what are you saying?"

Trump: "I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace."

Wallace: "Then do it, sir."

Biden: "Say it. Do it. Say it."

Trump: "Do you want to call them – what do you want to call them? Give me a name. Give me a name. Go ahead, who would you like me to condemn? Who?"

Wallace: "White supremacists and right wing militias."

Biden: "The Proud Boys. The Proud Boys."

Trump: "The Proud Boys. Stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what, somebody has got to do something about Antifa and the left. Because this is not a right wing problem, this is a left wing problem."

Biden: "His own FBI director said the threat of white supremacists-"

Trump: "This is a left wing problem."

Biden: "Antifa is an idea, not an organisation."

Trump: "Oh you've got to be kidding me. OK."

Biden: "That's what his FBI, his FBI director said."

Trump: "You know what? He's wrong. Antifa is not an idea. Antifa is bad."

For context here, the Proud Boys have been identified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Centre, which tracks extremist organisations.

And this quote from FBI Director Christopher Wray is the one Joe Biden was referring to.

“It’s not a group or an organization. It’s a movement or an ideology," Mr Wray told a congressional hearing earlier this month.

Mr Wray did also stress that Antifa is a "real thing" and a serious concern.

Trump hailed as 'gladiator warrior fighter'

One of the President's biggest supporters in the media, Fox News host Sean Hannity, has hailed him as a "gladiator warrior fighter".

"The extremely weak, the frail, the confused, kind of angry Joe Biden just got steamrolled by President Trump," Hannity told his viewers after the debate.

"Joe flat out refused to answer simple, basic, fundamental questions. Unable to respond to the President's beatdowns, and he appeared flustered, irritated and, well, cranky.

"Joe, maybe it's past his bedtime. Probably stayed up too late, needs his nap."

Hannity said Mr Biden could "barely form a sentence" at times during the debate.

Right-wing extremist group celebrates

New York Times reporter Mike Baker reports members of the Proud Boys, a far-right extremist group, are celebrating the shoutout they got from President Trump during the debate.

"Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. I tell you what, I tell you what, somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left, because this is not a right wing problem," Mr Trump said during a segment when he was asked to condemn white supremacists.

"Proud Boys shout at the presidential debate," one of the group's members said, according to Baker.

"Trump basically said to go f*** them up! This makes me so happy."

"Standing by, sir," said another.

Terrific.

The Proud Boys are now sharing the group’s logo with the president’s words emblazoned like a slogan. pic.twitter.com/T3tp286YRa
— Mike Baker (@ByMikeBaker) September 30, 2020

During the same segment, Joe Biden refused to directly call out the left-wing extremist group Antifa.

"Antifa is an idea, not an organisation," he said, quoting FBI Director Christopher Wray.

US media shellshocked by debate

Everyone on US television seems a bit shellshocked by what they just witnessed.

These quotes all come from just after the debate ended, as each TV network's began its analysis.

NBC anchor Lester Holt, who has moderated presidential debates in the past, described it as a "low point in American political discourse".

"Frankly, I'm a bit at loss for words here to describe what we've just witnessed," Holt said.

"Your jaw just dropped," said his colleague Savannah Guthrie.

"You can't pretend that this was a normal debate, a normal example of American democracy at work.

"This was different. This was an all-out grudge match. It was undignified at many times. It was cringeworthy.

"I think we just need to pause for a moment and say, that was crazy. What was that?"

.@LesterHoltNBC begins @NBCNews’ post-debate coverage: “I'm a bit at loss for words here to describe what we just witnessed.”@SavannahGuthrie: "You can't pretend that this was a normal debate, a normal example of American democracy at work."#Debates2020 pic.twitter.com/a2c7YLXQQf
— NBC News (@NBCNews) September 30, 2020

Over on ABC, George Stephanopoulos said he had never seen a worse debate in his life.

"That was the worst presidential debate I have ever seen in my life."

The network's White House correspondent, Jon Karl, agreed that the debate was "a total mess".

They were even harsher on CNN.

"That was the worst debate I have ever seen. It wasn't even a debate. It was a disgrace," said anchor Jake Tapper.

He labelled it "a hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a trainwreck".

"That was a s***show," said his colleague Dana Bash.

"That is really the phrase I'm getting from people on both sides of the aisle on text, and it's the only phrase I can think of to describe it."

Trump doubles down on 'fraud' claims

The last segment was about "election integrity", or in other words, Donald Trump's repeated claims that the Democrats will "steal" the election from him through widespread mail voter fraud.

"As far as the ballots are concerned, it's a disaster. A solicited ballot, OK, solicited, is OK. You're soliciting. You're asking. They send it back, you send it back. I I did that," Mr Trump said.

"If you have an – they're sending millions of ballots all over the country. There's fraud, they found them in creeks, they found some with the name Trump – just happened to have the name Trump just the other day in a waste paper basket. They're found all over the place.

"In a Democrat area they sent out a thousand ballots, everybody got two ballots. This is going to be a fraud like you've never seen.

"The other thing, it is nice, November 3, you're watching and you will see who won the election and I think we'll do well because people are happy with the job we've done. But you know what, we might not know for months, because these ballots are going to be all over.

"Take look at what happened in Virginia, they're losing 30 and 40 per cent. It is a fraud and it's a shame.

"We have major states with that all run by Democrats. All run by Democrats. It is a rigged election."

Mr Biden said there was "no evidence" to support Mr Trump's claims.

"He's just afraid of counting the votes."

Wallace asked both candidates whether they would urge their supporters to "stay calm" while the votes are counted, even if there's a delay in declaring the result.

"I'm urging my supporters to go to the polls and watch very carefully, because that's what has to happen. I'm urging them to do it," said Mr Trump.

"If I see tens of thousands of ballots being manipulated, I can't go along with that."

"What does that mean? Does that mean you'll tell your people to take to the streets?" Wallace asked.

"That means you have an fraudulent election," said the President.

Mr Biden said that "yes", he would urge his supporters to remain calm.

"Once the ballots are all counted, that'll be the end of it. If it's me, that's fine. If it's not me, I'll support it," he said.

'You have got to be kidding'

Here's another exchange on the whole law and order thing. Donald Trump was asked to directly condemn white supremacists.

Wallace: "You have repeatedly the vice president for not specifically calling out Antifa and other left-wing extremist groups. But are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia groups?"

Trump: "Sure."

Wallace: "And to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities, as we saw in Kenosha and we've seen in Portland?"

Trump: "Sure, I'm willing to do that. I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing."

Biden: "Say it. Do it. Say it."

Trump: "What do you want me to call them? Give me a name. What do you want me to condemn?"

Biden: "Proud Boys."

Wallace: "White supremacists."

Trump: "Proud Boys, stand back and stand by, but I tell you what, I tell you what, somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left, because this is not a right wing problem."

Biden: "Antifa is an idea, not an organisation."

Trump: "You've got to be kidding."

Biden: "That's what his FBI director said."

Trump: "You know what? He's wrong."

For the record, the Proud Boys are classified by the Southern Poverty Law Centre as white nationalist hate group. Maybe not the sort of organisation the President of the United States should be giving shoutouts to.

Proud Boys are a hate group that espouses white supremacy, antisemitism and misogyny. They’ve appeared alongside other hate groups at rallies across the country, often attempting to incite violence. Read our extremist profile on them here: https://t.co/1RFpCcVLDS
— Southern Poverty Law Center (@splcenter) September 30, 2020

Biden fumbles: 'We don't have time'

The conversation went off the rails again – to be fair, was it ever really on them? – when the candidates were asked to talk about law and order.

"He doesn't want to say law and order because he can't, because he'll lose his radical left supporters, and once he does that it's over with," Mr Trump said.

"If he ever got to run this country and they ran it the way he wants to run it, our suburbs would be gone, by the way. Our suburbs would be done."

"He wouldn't know a suburb unless he took a wrong turn," Mr Biden interjected.

"Oh, I know suburbs. So much about suburbs," said Mr Trump.

"I was raised in the suburbs. This is not the 1950s. All these dog whistles on racism don't work anymore," said Mr Biden.

That was followed by this rather spicy exchange.

Trump: "He's talking about defunding the police."

Biden: "That is not true."

Trump: "He doesn't have any law. He has no law enforcement."

Biden: "That is not true."

Trump: "Look, who do you have? Name one group that supports you. Name one group that came out and supported you? We have time."

Biden: "We don't have time to do anything except answer the question."

Having watched more than an hour of this nonsense now, I can assure you that both men have been making ample time to not answer the questions put to them.

Trump claims he paid millions in income tax

As expected, the subject of Donald Trump's taxes came up. Chris Wallace asked him about the New York Times investigation which found he was paying hardly any income tax.

"Is it true that you paid $750 in federal income taxes, each of those two years (2016 and 2017)?" Wallace asked.

"I paid millions of dollars in taxes. Millions of dollars in income tax," the President said.

"Show us your tax returns. Show us your tax returns," Mr Biden interjected.

"You will see it as soon as it's finished (the IRS audit)," Mr Trump replied.

Wallace repeated his original question.

"Will you tell us how much you paid in federal income taxes in 2016 and 2017?" he asked.

"Millions of dollars," said Mr Trump.

"You paid millions of dollars?" Wallace pressed.

"Millions of dollars, yes," Mr Trump said.

"Not 750?" said Wallace.

"You'll get to see it," the President said.

"It was the tax laws – I don't want to pay tax. Before I came here, I was a private developer. I was a private business person. Like every other private person, unless they're stupid, they go through the laws, and that is what it is."

Mr Biden promised to eliminate the tax cuts Mr Trump got passed through Congress, should he be elected.

"Why didn't you do it over the last 25 years?" the President asked.

"Because you are a President screwing things up. You're the worst President America has ever had. Come on," said Mr Biden.

'He is a fool on this'

Staying with the pandemic for another moment here. Donald Trump was asked why he didn't wear a face mask more often.

"You have to understand, I have a mask right here. I put a mask on when I think I need it. Tonight is an example – everybody has had a test and you've had social distancing and all the things that you have to, but I wear masks when needed," the President said.

"Except at rallies," Joe Biden interjected.

"I don't wear a mask like him. He could be speaking 200 feet away and shows up with the biggest mask I've ever seen," Mr Trump said.

"Masks make a big difference. His own head of the CDC said if everyone just wore masks between now and January we'd probably save up to 100,000 lives. It matters. It matters," Mr Biden argued.

"They've also said the opposite," said Mr Trump.

"Dr Fauci said – he said masks are not good. Then he changed hi mind."

Chris Wallace decided to inject himself back into the conversation at that point.

"Your different approaches have affected the way you've campaigned," he told the candidates.

"President Trump, you're holding the large rallies with crowds packed together, thousands of people. Vice President Biden, you're holding much smaller events-"

"Because nobody will show up," Mr Trump said.

"Alright," said Wallace.

"It's true!" the President insisted.

"In any case, why are you holding big rallies?" Wallace finished.

"Because people want to hear what I have to say. I have done a great job as President, and I'll have 35,000 people show up at airports," said Mr Trump.

"Are you not worried about infection, sir?" asked Wallace.

"So far we've had no problem whatsoever," said Mr Trump.

"We do them outside. We have tremendous crowds, as you see, and literally on 24 hours' notice. And Joe does the circles and has three people, some places."

Mr Biden told viewers the President "is not worried about you or the people out there breathing cheek to jowl".

"He has been totally irresponsible in the way in which he has handled the social distancing and people wearing masks. Basically encouraging them not to. He's a fool on this," he said.

"If you could get the crowds you would have done the same thing. But you can't. Nobody cares. Nobody cares," said Mr Trump.

Read related topics:Donald Trump Joe Biden