Lawyer X royal commission: Nicola Gobbo finally speaks out on informer scandal
Nicola Gobbo claims she was “cooking chips at the MCG” and “studying” when Victoria Police first registered her as an informer in 1995.
Law & Order
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Nicola Gobbo claims Victoria Police registered her as an informer without her knowledge in 1995.
“I don’t know who I was informing on when I was cooking chips at the MCG...and studying full-time,” said Ms Gobbo.
Gobbo made the claim in a TV interview tonight, just days after telling the royal commission she only has two hours’ free time per week and has not read a single page of transcripts from 10 months of hearings.
The woman whose betrayal of her criminal clients sparked a royal commission into police informants has so far evaded speaking to the inquiry, her lawyers saying she is too unwell.
Speaking for the first time to the ABC from a secret international location, Gobbo claimed her “greatest fear is the police themselves”.
She told the ABC “it’s a complicated story” and she has been ordered to give evidence to the royal commission in January over the phone.
“I think it’s been grossly misreported and is perhaps misunderstood,” she said of her informing. “I have been snookered by Victoria Police.”
When asked if she knew of any other lawyers acting as informers, Gobbo said she believes “there is at least one who is still practising”.
Gobbo said she is sick, exhausted and in fear of her life from others and her “greatest fear is police themselves”.
“Either to kill me or to lead to a position where I am killed,” she said.
She adds: “Myself and my two young children are presently stranded overseas.
“We are effectively stateless because we have been left in a foreign country in which we have no rights, because obviously, we’re foreigners. And we can’t obtain residency.”
Ms Gobbo says police have warned her if she returns to Australia, they will have her children taken from her custody for their safety.
Victoria’s police chief Graham Ashton said he was “surprised” by Gobbo’s decision to give a tell-all interview just days after arguing she was too unwell to give evidence at the royal commission.
Mr Ashton said he was unaware of her plans to sue the police force and would be keenly watching tonight to see what else the barrister-turned-informer reveals.
“I’ll see it tonight along with everyone else,” Mr Ashton said.
“We’ll have to see what’s in it, I’ve got no idea,” he said as he walked from the royal commission this evening.
The top cop rubbished claims Gobbo was at risk of being killed by police if she returned to Australia.
“She need have no fear from police officers”, Mr Ashton said, adding Victoria Police was doing “everything they can” to keep Gobbo safe.
Asked if he thought her willingness to do a television interview meant she should front the royal commission to testify, the top cop said it was a matter for Gobbo.
Speaking at the end of his second full day of evidence, Mr Ashton said he could not comment on matters before the commission but stood firm in his view he didn’t do anything wrong during the Lawyer X scandal.
“As I’ve always said, I don’t think I’ve done anything wrong in this matter … I’ve tried at all times to be as full and frank as possible,” Mr Ashton said.
“If she has a complaint to make she should make it to the IBAC,” he said earlier today.
Mr Ashton said he had not been made aware of allegations made by the barrister-turned-informer that police would remove her children from her custody if she returned to Australia.
Mr Ashton will return to conclude his evidence tomorrow.
Police Association secretary Wayne Gatt also blasted Gobbo’s claim that she could be killed by members of Victoria Police as “without basis”.
“I don’t think that is credible at all,” said Mr Gatt.
“I think we are talking about someone who has persistently rejected support from Victoria Police and offers for protection who is now saying she had concerns for her safety.
“I think it’s a perplexing argument and it’s not one I take very seriously.”
Asked about Gobbo’s claim that she would be fed to the wolves if she stopped co-operating as a police informer, Mr Gatt said police tried to protect rather than harm her.
“Victoria Police are on the record trying to engage Nicola Gobbo with protection and that’s at odds with her concerns about her personal safety,” he said. “Victoria Police have tried to ensure her safety.”
Gobbo was a registered informer three times on and off between 1996 and 2009, ratting on clients including drug kingpin Tony Mokbel and underworld killer Carl Williams.
Victoria Police has been contacted for comment.
GOBBO ON POLICE THREATS
Nicola Gobbo told the ABC there was “no way I would trust” police.
“What started off as a threat — which was people like you end up in one of two places — which is either prison or the gutter, dead, with a bullet in you. Once it started, there was the threat of well, you know, you’ve only got us to protect you … And if you don’t do A, B and C, then we’re the only thing that stands between … any criminal or alleged criminal finding out what you’re doing … without saying, if we tell anybody, you’ll be murdered.”
“There’s always going to be a risk (to her safety) but my greatest fear is the police themselves.”
ON GIVING EVIDENCE AT ROYAL COMMISSION
“In order to produce a witness statement I would conservatively guess that would take me 1,000 hours, and … I mean, 1,000 hours without being interrupted, being able to concentrate and not being in pain,” Gobbo told ABC’s 7.30.
“And then an opportunity to review the, what I understood some months ago, to be 30,000 pages of material.”
Gobbo said she was only able to do an interview because the ABC travelled to meet her.
“You (ABC) were able to understand that it was something that could only be done for a couple of hours, a very short period of time, because of issues to do with my children,” she said.
“For months and months, it frustrated me. I was manic about it.
“I couldn’t sleep … but over time, that has changed into suicidal thoughts — obviously no suicide action — severe depression, uncontrolled pain … frustration at the idea or the prospect that my version or even the details of some things are just going to be swept under the rug.”
ON BECOMING AN INFORMER
“I think they (police) probably groomed me from day one.
“When … people who you are either acting for or who you’ve — to whom you’ve been introduced are being shot and or murdered on a weekly basis, and you’re being pre-warned about those things taking place, to not do anything when you have that knowledge is something that I morally had an issue with.
“And that … in part is one explanation for why I assisted the police.
“(Police) made it clear to me that if I didn’t continue to assist them and to do what they asked when they asked or, if I held anything back from them, that they would release my name and effectively feed me to the wolves.”
ON THE HODSONS
Gobbo has denied leaking information that identified Terrence Hodson as a police informer.
Mr Hodson and his wife Christine were murdered in their Melbourne home in 2004.
“The whole world knew that he was an informer … the fact of him being a police informer was a matter which was revealed by senior police openly and transparently when they responded to requests for information on behalf of numerous people I acted for,” she told the ABC.
“So, the suggestion that it was some tightly held secret is ridiculous.”
She also denied knowing the Hodsons were going to be killed.
ON PAUL DALE
In 2008, Gobbo wore a wire to record a conversation she had with former detective Paul Dale.
Mr Dale was a suspect in the Hodson murders.
The charges against Mr Dale were eventually dropped and he maintains he had no involvement in the case.
Gobbo admitted she had sex with Mr Dale once, but didn’t go into further detail about their relationship.
ON FARUK ORMAN
Gobbo said she didn’t think gangland getaway driver Faruk Orman — who walked free from prison because of her informing — “should ever have been convicted in the first place”.
“The evidence against him was, as I understand it, was weak, to say the least. And I don’t think that he as an accused was provided with — I don’t know this for a fact — but was provided with all of the exculpatory material that he should’ve had.”
ON PUBLIC PERCEPTION
“A lot of people will say, ‘tough, you did this to yourself,” she said.
”It’s not my place to try and convince people to form one view or another. But I think there wouldn’t be anyone, if they’re honest with themselves, that hasn’t made a mistake in their lives or that hasn’t done something and it had totally unexpected consequences.”
ON REPERCUSSIONS
Gobbo said if any criminals were released from prison due to her informing, or had their convictions overturned, “then Victoria Police have really only got themselves to blame”.
“Anything that I did or didn’t do was at the behest and control and with the full knowledge and imprimatur of Victoria Police.
“So, if I did or didn’t do something, it was because of them, or at least with their knowledge and with their approval.
“So, if I’m to be charged, then I suppose we’ll be in the dock together.”
MORE LAWYER X
GOBBO FORCED TO TESTIFY AT ROYAL COMMISSION
Gobbo said she only felt guilt about how the Lawyer X scandal had affected her children.
“My guilt, my overwhelming guilt is for what my children have had to endure.
“I suppose if I had my time over, I would do things very differently.
“But then, on the other hand, I think, what choice did I have in respect of what some people said in front of me? Morally and ethically, I felt like I had no choice.”