Dermott Brereton talks footy with fellow hardman ‘Fabulous’ Phil Carman who was a star in the VFL
Phil Carmen, who boasted sublime skill and toughess, tells Dermott Brereton the reason he headbutted an umpire and why he’s a bit embarrassed by his career.
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His career has been defined by a headbutt to an umpire, and missing the 1977 Grand Final on report — which may have cost Collingwood a flag.
Phil Carman, skilful and superfit, put the fear of god into the VFL.
It’s only fitting that Dermott Brereton asks a fellow hardman to relive those crazy days.
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Dermott Brereton: What do you think of the game today?
Phil Carman: Having played when it was more one-on-one footy, I find it frustrating to see the ball being kicked sideways and backwards so often. If I go to the footy I’ll only watch a quarter if I’m lucky and then I’ll head into the club and socialise. I find it’s much better to watch on the telly than it is to watch live. It’s not a bad game, but not as combative as it was.
If you had a suggestion for the rule makers, what you would love to see?
They just make far too many changes. And I’m not sure if they help the game. Some rule to stop the ball going sideways and backwards as much as it does.
You were one of the most extraordinary endurance athletes we’ve seen, especially for a key position player. Would it frustrate you if you had an opponent who they were rotating on you so they could keep up with you?
I don’t think so because I was very proud of my fitness levels and therefore I would always be on the move. I still think it would be challenging, regardless of whether they did play one or two guys on me. I would have had the ability to weaken them off.
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I love that answer, Phil. You’re going to take two of them on.
I meant if they were rotating. I didn’t mean two at a time.
Leigh Matthews said Dustin Martin’s year when he won the Brownlow two years ago was the best he’d seen. What about Leigh in ’73 where he got 500 (disposals) and kicked 90 (goals)? For me the best key position was you in ’75. You must have been in total control.
I had come across from Adelaide. I played several times against a Victorian side and I knew the fitness level I had to achieve to keep up because South Australia didn’t defeat Victoria in those games. I imagined that they were going to be so much fitter. But when I got here, I found that it was very unprofessional. The players weren’t fit at all. That was the advantage I had immediately. I had this work ethic to train and run. I was able to outrun anybody I played on.
I remember seeing you play against some of the bigger centre half backs and they couldn’t run with you and the smaller ones couldn’t compete with you.
The first year (at Collingwood) I played in the centre. It wasn’t ’til after I broke my foot midway through that year playing for Victoria against WA. I missed eight games and my first game back was against Essendon and I kicked six (goals) eight (behinds) and the following week I kicked 11 (goals) against St Kilda. They thought I was a forward and I wasn’t. I would have liked to have been still playing midfield or in the centre of the ground.
You’ve always claimed that haven’t you? You were a midfielder who they turned into a forward.
I had that elite running ability. What frustrated me was having to play at centre half-forward or full forward because I wasn’t able to roam the ground and use that fitness. I wish in hindsight I mentioned something to the coach.
Is there any measurement that a current player might look at and think ‘wow’?
We didn’t have the beep test in those days. I trained with John Toleman (Stawell Gift winner and professional running coach), Len Thompson, Peter Dean and Tuddy (Des Tuddenham). We used to run at Caulfield and occasionally at the “Tan” (around the Botanical Gardens). The first night I had a run there, with Johnny Toleman’s group and all these guys who ran professionally, they took off up Anderson St and I’m coming last at the top of Anderson St. I’m thinking ‘geez, these guys are really good’. Around the Botanical Hotel when it flattened, I kept going at the same pace and then gradually increased my pace. I clearly came in front of them — 11min 17sec was my best time. I consistently ran 11min 17sec to 11min 20sec.
It makes a mockery of people who say, ‘Oh, they’re so much fitter these days’.
The term athlete is used too freely. I look at an athlete as somebody who can run and jump and do a number of things. A lot of footballers they classify as athletes are just very good footballers. Some can run, but what time they would run the “Tan”?
At what age did you recognise, I’m good at football?
I went to Norwood and I couldn’t play for two years. Then I got back playing. It probably wasn’t until I got to Collingwood that year ’75, that I realised I can play this game. In Adelaide, I was playing with a lot of my mates. It wasn’t until Melbourne in a foreign competition, foreign country it seemed to be at that stage.
When you came across you mentioned the great Len Thompson, there were the Richardson brothers and Billy Picken was making his way as a youngster.
Peter Moore.
What a wonderful player and Brownlow medallist. How did you view them? When you walked through the door did you look and say ‘I want to be better than them’?
I didn’t even know them.
You were that naive to Victorian football?
I had Collingwood coming over to recruit me all the time, but I never followed the VFL at all. I knew the guys the few times I played against Victoria. I knew “Jezza” (Alex Jesaulanko), Thommo (Len Thompson) and Geoff Southby. I played on Geoff a couple of times. When I got to Collingwood, other than Len, I didn’t know who was who. It was a bit rude, but I didn’t do my homework to work out who these guys were.
A lot of Collingwood supporters say “If Phil didn’t get reported in the ’77 second semi-final we would have won that premiership”. How do you feel about that?
Didn’t give it a thought then, but now I think we could have won it. That and a couple of other things have haunted me for a long while. I could have been a difference that day. I’m sort of embarrassed, as the years go on. It grates on you.
When (boundary umpire) Graham Carberry was reporting you for the shoulder on Sidey (St Kilda’s Gary Sidebottom), what made you go “Bang, I don’t like this bloke, Graham Carberry?”
It wasn’t that I didn’t like him. It’s just that I hit Sidebottom and I glanced to my right and I could see he wasn’t watching me. He was watching the play up field. So I went whack. Unbeknown to me the field umpire came in and said he was reporting me. I thought that’s fair enough. When Carberry came in and started saying he was reporting me, I asked him why. And he couldn’t give me an answer. He didn’t say it was striking.
He was just “chesting” me — for minutes, it seemed like — and I sort of had enough and dropped the forehead. It was no real impact. It was a force to get him away from me, because I couldn’t push him and I dropped the head, which is probably worse than pushing. There wasn’t any dislike or anything. I didn’t even know him.
Would that be your greatest regret in footy?
Well there’s that and missing the Grand Final.
Blokes like myself and Eddie McGuire … idolised you. There is a whole era of Collingwood supporters who are so thankful that Phil Carman got the life membership for winning the Copeland Trophy (1975).
That was one of the best things that ever happened to me because having only played 100 VFL games and only a few in Adelaide (57). To be awarded a life membership was quite special. As far as you and Eddie saying we worship you. I don’t know. I think “oh yeah”. I do meet other people who say “you were my favourite player” and I’ll say “thanks very much”.
That fitness regimen. I can’t get my head around it.
My first year I was employed by Collingwood as their development officer. Murray Weideman and myself had to go to schools throughout the day. I had time in the morning to train. I’d either work out in the gym or I’d get to know the “Tan”. I also lived in Brighton. I’d take my dogs for a run along the jetties down there. I would train in the morning and I would get out in the afternoon. Fellas like Billy Picken and Peter Moore and several other guys we would have end to end kicking, which they don’t do anymore. That end to end kicking was competitive. It was like a game. We were trying to outdo one another.
You do that from 5pm to 5.30 or 6 when all the other blokes would turn up for training. I would then train for half an hour and think “that’s enough for me”. I would then go to the sheds. Murray didn’t come in often because he knew he wouldn’t get anywhere with me, but Tommy (Hafey) would come in and ask me to go out and I’d say “no look, I’ve done enough”. That happened, which is not a wonderful thing.
Sometimes our training was crap. There’d be a line of you, eight in a group, and you’d have to wait ’til everybody had their turn. I would always push in; I just wanted to be touching the footy, kicking the footy all the time. I didn’t want to be spectating at the back of a group. Training was never as intense and I knew that I could get more benefit training on my own and then come out on the odd occasion for end to end to get my ball skills up. Not an ideal group situation or commitment to the team. That’s why I said I was a bit embarrassed about my career. I had the tendency to do things like that.
When you coached Kangaroo Flat how did your experiences as a player under the likes of Murray Weideman and Tommy Hafey — and at Melbourne, Essendon and North Melbourne — affect Phil Carman the coach?
Coaching in the country was difficult. You didn’t have the players and they didn’t have the time to dedicate to training. It wasn’t until I went to Adelaide and coached Sturt that I knew how to go about it. I just knew that if I got them fit and strong we would be very competitive. I didn’t take anything from any of the coaches I played under, but I knew that you don’t do what Phil Carman did. I would often say to the guys, “I know every trick in the book”. My saying was “f--- up, f--- off”. The players responded to that. When I was coaching there, I was fitter than the players there at the age of 40.
I just implemented my own stuff and a little bit like Tommy (Hafey), you get them fit and you’ll be all right. Teach them how to fight … no not really. No, teach them discipline. Just tell them not to be intimidated. You would have thought playing under all of those coaches in Victoria you might learn something, but I didn’t.
Is there one coach you had that resonated with you?
Barry Davis (at Essendon). He was wonderful. I only had him for six or eight games because I got suspended. I played against him when he was playing at North Melbourne, so he recruited me and said I want to play you on ball. I thought, “Oh you ripper”. He knew what he was talking about. In the pre-season and after a couple of matches he would say, ‘Listen, did you see what Phil did?” For the first time in all the years I played footy I felt really important.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody ask you about your short lived time at Melbourne (in 1979). They gave you Ron Barrassi’s number. Why did you leave so quickly?
I broke my thumb. I went to punch a guy in the stomach. Got him in the pelvis and missed several games. And again, with Carl Ditterich as coach, I did a couple of things that he wasn’t impressed with. I was asked to leave.
They asked you to leave?
Yeah, Ray Manley, the general manager of Melbourne, called me into the office. There had been talk Carl might go back to coach St Kilda. Anyway, he called me into the office at the end of the year for an exit meeting. I didn’t think it was an exit meeting. He said the Melbourne Football Club isn’t big enough for you and Carl. So he said ‘sorry, Phil, you’re going’. I only had the one year.
Then your time at Essendon. How did you come about leaving Essendon to go to North Melbourne?
First year I missed 20 weeks with the Carberry and Sidebottom incidents. Then “Sheeds” (Kevin Sheedy) came along as coach. I probably only played eight or 10 games for the year because I was injured and had an operation on my Achilles. At the end of the year, don’t know what happened, but I wasn’t invited back. I was very fortunate because I was running out of clubs. Sitting at home late one night, Barry Cable phoned me. He was coaching North Melbourne and he said, “Would you be interested in coming to play for North?”
I thought “Thank you, I really need to”. So he invited me over to his place. I drove over that night. It was around 11pm-midnight at Lilydale on the other side of town. You only had the Melways then and you had to find your way. He was impressed with that I was prepared to meet at that hour of the night.
They were the only club that wanted me to stay at the end. I said, “No, I’ve had enough”. I should have stayed because Blighty (Malcolm Blight) left that year. I was playing alongside Malcolm in the forward pocket and I rarely touched the footy because Blighty was getting all the footy. The only time I did well was when he was out injured or didn’t play.
My first game was your last game. The first semi-final of 1982. Chris Mew played on you that day. I had a look at the stats and I think you did all right.
I got reported. I would have kept playing. I didn’t do anything. I thought, ‘No, I’ve had enough”. I got off at the tribunal, but I’m thinking “now you’re getting reported for nothing”. That’s why I gave it away. In hindsight I could have played on. Your first game. You didn’t come and introduce yourself to me.
Before I let you off the hook, your ankle injury in ’75 and you missed seven or eight games?
Eight games. Broke my foot.
Did you get invited to the Brownlow that year? Do you remember the call?
I did. I was actually running the “Tan” one night the week prior to that. Jack Hamilton, who was the general manager, used to run the “Tan” often and we ran past each other. Anyway, we stopped and said g’day. He said ‘just make sure that you attend the Brownlow’. I went to Sydney for the weekend and went to see a guy called Reg Livermore, he was an entertainer. I went with Len Thompson. We got back and Thommo said to me ‘make sure you go’, but I stayed home, I didn’t go. I’m glad I didn’t go.
In those days, They would do all the one votes, all the two votes and then they’d get into three votes. I think they gave you five three votes in a row and everybody, including myself, was going he’s going to run them down here. You didn’t get to watch that?
No.
This is extraordinary.
It wasn’t even on TV was it?
It was. Yes ’75, I watched it.
I didn’t go. It didn’t really interest me that much.
What about the mates you’ve made out of footy?
Not a lot. John Dellamarta is one consistent guy that I’ve known for a long time. I lived in Lilydale he lived in Clifton Hill. I would call into his place on the way home even when I was playing at Essendon and North Melbourne. Yes, he’d get sick of me calling. He had three young girls. Sometimes I’d be out and I’d be half p---ed and I just drop in to say g’day on the way home. Johnny is the only consistent one and little Shane Bond is the other. Nobody in Victoria.
It’s interesting. I made a lot of good friends in South Australia having coached. Even though I played at Norwood, I don’t catch up with anybody there. It’s only Sturt, the most recent club I’ve been involved with. I made some very good friends, lifelong friends there as a coach.
If you could put humility aside, how would you like to be remembered as Phil Carman the footballer?
Dermott, you’ve made it difficult for me there. I’m not happy with my little lot. I’ve got a lot of notoriety through the incidents I’ve been in. I did some play some good footy, even though those incidents sort of outweigh my value as a player. I’m sort of happy with how it has turned out, being a controversial person and that sort of thing. I accept that.
Tony Shaw thinks you are in the top three of the most talented footballers he’s seen.
I only played 100 VFL games. It’s nothing isn’t it? When you say how would you like to be remembered? That’s just the way it is. It will never change. I’m disappointed, but I’m content.
I played with Michael Tuck, and he’s a funny bugger, but there are times when I could understand people wanted to give him a clout. Why did you give Tucky a clout in that final in ’77?
I had no idea who it was to be quite honest. I kicked the first goal of the match and handballed to Thommo for the second goal of the game. Shortly after I contested a footy, I can see it clearly now. I contested a footy, it got punched away and I just was just chasing the footy.
There was a Hawthorn player. I often tell people I had to make a split decision as to whether to go for the footy or, being a final, take the man out. Seriously, I didn’t know who it was.
Dipper (Robert DiPierdomenico) and I use to get the all the suspensions and Tucky was the dirtiest of all us. He was too smart. He was very crafty, Tucky.
A lot of people have told me that. He was a dirty bastard.
Final one, they say never meet your heroes because you’ll be disappointed, Phil. All I can say is I’m rapt I’ve got to meet you and know you over the journey. It’s been a privilege.
I’m just so rapt, because you say you admired the way I went about my footy. I just loved that when you played you had charisma. You were colourful. You know those sorts of things you did, running towards the crowd. That’s why when people ask me who my favourite is? I just say “Dermott, for sure”. You just had it. You and I were peas in the pod.
Originally published as Dermott Brereton talks footy with fellow hardman ‘Fabulous’ Phil Carman who was a star in the VFL
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