Deborah Mailman and Claudia Karvan together again
Eighteen years after The Secret Life Of Us, Deborah Mailman has reunited with former castmate Claudia Karvan for a candid conversation about life, lingerie — and whether there should be a Secret Life reboot.
Stellar
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Eighteen years ago, television series The Secret Life Of Us burst onto our screens — and into our collective consciousness.
Every week over six years, Australians would tune in to see what drama Samuel Johnson’s Evan, Claudia Karvan’s Alex and Deborah Mailman’s Kelly would find themselves enmeshed in next.
The show was especially notable for being one of the first prime-time series to feature an Indigenous woman as a main cast member, and Mailman has gone on to feature in numerous productions since then — Rabbit-Proof Fence, Bran Nue Dae, The Sapphires, Redfern Now, Wolf Creek and Offspring, to name a few — cementing her as one of the most talented actors of her generation.
Now, in an exclusive photo shoot and interview with Stellar, she sits down with her good friend and former castmate Karvan to discuss the meaning of life, career goals, and whether or not The Secret Life Of Us should make a comeback.
Claudia Karvan: So, you won “Most Popular Actress” at the Logies this year...
Deborah Mailman: [Laughs.] Yeah, I’m popular, thank you very much.
CK: Did you think you were going to win that?
DM: Nah. It’s a massive award though.
CK: Do you remember we got nominated a few times together for Secret Life? Both years we were nominated together, and you won one and I won one.
DM: When we first started out, we were at the back of the room.
CK: Yes, yes, yes, slowly we got...
DM: Slowly we got to the front tables.
CK: Closer to the stage. I can’t remember what year or what one you won or I won, and we had this big smooch, and they put it up on the credits at the end. There was this picture of you and I smooching and I was like, “Wow, we look like lovers.” I think we were quite drunk. [Mailman laughs.] Do you not remember that?
DM: I don’t remember that...
CK: It’s another life.
DM: It’s another life. It’s another show.
CK: Now, I’m just going to piss in your pocket; you’re very modest so you’re terrible at taking compliments. I find the majority of times when you know the actor and you watch their performance, you can see them acting. But it’s like, Deb anguished, or Deb sexy, or Deb hilarious, or Deb drunk — you’re always so stripped back. Are there any emotions or are there any scenarios where you go, “Oh sh*t, that’s my kryptonite, I’m not very good at conveying that emotion”?
DM: I guess because I am quite open, anything that is not very perceptive I find difficult. For example, if I had to be a nasty piece of work or whatever, that terrifies me because I think it would be quite fun to do — but I don’t know how to access that.
CK: Because it’s not a part of who you are.
DM: I don’t think it is.
CK: No, I don’t think it is either. So what do you do? Is that in [Mailman’s new ABC television show] Total Control?
DM: I think one thing surprising about Alex Irving [the character she plays] is that she is quite an emotional character. She feels things very personally, which is very close to who I am as a person. On the page she reads as quite cold and distant, but it became quite the opposite of that in playing her. She is very impulsive. She’s wild. She has a temper. I love playing someone who is really fiery.
CK: Was it liberating?
DM: It was so liberating.
CK: Did you find you were able to inhabit that leadership part of you for the role?
DM: I don’t think I’ll ever be comfortable with that sort of leadership quality, but that’s the great thing about working with great scripts because you don’t have to do that much work.
CK: What does this show mean to you?
DM: The simplest answer is that it means a hell of a lot. Working with Blackfella Films, the integrity in the way they approach storytelling and the story that matters to Indigenous people is the work I want to be part of.
CK: You’ve done Redfern Now with them, and Mabo.
DM: Yeah. I would love to have another season with [Total Control]. A show like this confirms why I’m doing what I’m doing. It was the best experience I’ve had doing this.
I was quite terrified approaching this. [Fellow actor and castmate] Rachel Griffiths and I have spoken about this — our past experience is often in supporting roles. So you come in and you’re not driving the narrative. To then be given something to carry from beginning to end — I found quite terrifying. This is my insecurities coming in thinking, “Can I do this?” I love that Total Control has strong female leads. You have an Indigenous politician with that split sense of responsibility to family, having to walk away from that constantly in order to do her job.
CK: Speaking of women, we once both did an interview about what women want. Do you remember what you spoke about?
DM: I think I did a list of all the things that I want in life. I think I said that I want to have matching bra and panties [both laugh]. Because I have never had matching bra and panties.
CK: Have you rectified that?
DM: Nah, I’m not a lingerie girl.
CK: Do you embrace the spokeswoman role?
DM: No, no.
CK: Do you think the industry has moved beyond casting Indigenous actors for tokenism? Has the needle moved?
DM: The needle has absolutely moved a fair bit. In a really great way. If we look at the last decade in terms of the strength and the way Indigenous storytelling is, it is incredible.
CK: How lucky do you feel to be acting during this time and witnessing this?
DM: It’s fantastic. It’s really exciting. The wave of new artists that are coming... I just can’t wait to see what’s next. It makes the industry as a whole really robust and invigorating. It’s important that you know we have our mob in the writers’ room, behind the camera, in all those sorts of departments because that’s how we tell our story with integrity and authenticity.
We are a diverse nation so our screen content and workplaces should absolutely reflect that. Inclusivity and diversity should be mandatory.
CK: Something I absolutely love about you is I’ll send you an email — because people stop me all the time and go, “You know Deb, don’t you? Can you ask her to do this?” and I’ll email you about it. I love the fact that you never reply because I just know that you’re so good at delineating, “This is my life, this is what makes me happy, and this is my space,” and you just don’t engage.
DM: Aw, thank you. It’s a bit rude though, isn’t it? [Both laugh.]
CK: It’s not at all. In this day and age more people need to do it. I never take it personally.
DM: Generally, whether it’s an email or something that really has to have an answer to, I’ll give it an answer, but if I look at something and go, “Look, I’ll come back to that,” I never do. I almost wanted to throw my phone in the water the other day because I’m just sick of it, sick of all this. I generally like being uncontactable. I like living in my little bubble.
CK: You enjoy your own company and the kids. [Mailman is married to Matthew Coonan and mother to Henry, 12, and Oliver, nine.]
DM: I mean, don’t get me wrong, I love what we do — I love my job — but I love so much more just being at home. Just having my own world, sitting down watching TV, just being with the kids. Not having to work to a schedule.
CK: So what are your hobbies? Do you like cooking?
DM: Nup.
CK: Painting? Embroidery?
DM: Ah, no.
CK: Zumba?
DM: No. Ah, what do I do? I’ve a pretty boring life.
CK: You’re not boring.
DM: I do a little bit of gardening. I wouldn’t say I know what I’m doing. But I just like getting out in the backyard and pulling out a few weeds. I love swimming.
CK: Do you wear goggles?
DM: Yeah, but I don’t wear a bathing cap.
CK: Do you find when you get out you’ve got those goggle rings for hours? You don’t give a sh*t.
DM: It’s not a very attractive sight coming out of the water. I’ve been teaching myself butterfly, too, by the way.
CK: Oh, lord, that’s impressive.
DM: No, I look like a dragon [both laugh]. A dragon who is drowning.
CK: Do you find that as you get older and more experienced, you get a bit less patient with being told what to do?
DM: Oh yeah.
CK: It’s terrible, isn’t it? I’ve turned into a grouch of an old lady on set.
DM: I’m turning into one.
CK: Oh good, I’m glad I’m not alone. Is there anything specifically that you can share? Any revelations or epiphanies that you’ve had?
DM: There are many — I just cant remember them! I don’t retain information very well. I’m wondering, do you have this problem? My short-term memory is great, but my long-term memory is getting affected...
CK: Oh, I’m jealous, my memory is too good. I tell myself stories I wish I could forget. I feel tormented half the time. Enjoy it — enjoy being forgetful [laughs]. Do you align yourself with a particular charity or cause?
DM: No, and it’s not because I’ve had a bad experience. It’s just coming back to my time.
CK: Good on you. And feeling uncomfortable with taking that celebrity spokesperson role.
DM: Actually even being comfortable saying no. It’s hard to do. I find it hard.
CK: When did you learn how to say no?
DM: Having the kids certainly helped me with that. They are my priority. Everything comes third, fourth, behind that. Now I’m getting into the habit of saying no. Which means when I say yes there’s a reason I say yes — because it’s important to me and I want to do it.
CK: Does your partner ask you to say no more?
DM: Matty just sits back and allows me to have a conversation in my head out loud. Not necessarily talking to him. I just have to have a conversation out loud. He watches me trying to get to a resolution. Then he will say, “That took a really long time to get to that answer, Deb.” He’s my sounding board. Sometimes I’m too in my head with overthinking.
He’s like, “Here are your choices.” He’s great at simplifying a situation for me.
CK: He has got patience and clarity.
DM: Yes, because I overcomplicate. I’m already thinking of things that haven’t even happened. It’s terrible I know; I’ve learnt to stop that a little bit but not as much as I’d like to. Meditation is good for that. “Stay in the present, stay in the present, don’t go off with those thoughts...” But I’m so good at it. To the point where I really have to stop myself: “Mailman, don’t.”
CK: I think it’s the creative storytelling instinct in us. That’s our brain patterns. We have a nose for drama.
DM: But then it becomes a residue in our own personal life and you sort of wake up going, “Why am I so frustrated and angry?”
CK: That’s right. Then you go, “Why am I so frustrated when that imagined scenario didn’t even happen?” So stupid. I find, as an atheist, whenever I have bad days, I always come back to, “What the hell is the meaning of life?” Do you have those days? I mean, I’ve answered it — my answer is to share our stories. That for me is the meaning of life. Do you have a meaning?
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DM: I’ve never really asked myself that question [both laugh]. I’d probably wonder more about what’s beyond. I’ve never wondered “Why am I here?” — I’m actually interested in where we’re going. What happens after this.
CK: The afterlife? Have you got a theory?
DM: Not really. I do believe there is some place, there is somewhere. We don’t just suddenly... I do believe in the spirit. Definitely believe in carrying on in some way or another. I just don’t know what it’s going to look like.
CK: That’s beautiful. One last question on Secret Life because Sam [Johnson, their The Secret Life Of Us castmate] has said there can only be a reboot if the old cast is involved. Should there be a reboot?
DM: I’d just want it to be a very good show.
CK: A whole lot of old people sharing a flat in St Kilda? Ah, change the channel [laughs]. This is something that surprised me — there’s an article that says, “Deb has been very open about living with anxiety.”
DM: I might have been in a bad way. I did say that.
CK: Let’s put that down on the record. She has recovered as an anxious person [both laugh].
DM: Look, like everyone, I have my insecurities and let’s call it that.
CK: You are human basically. OK, I reckon we are done. You are a pleasure to interview. I missed my calling as a journalist.
DM: Would you follow this through?
CK: What? Being a journalist? Probably not — all I want to do is go on holidays. I’m not really looking for a new profession. I’m embracing my laziness.
DM: I don’t see it as weakness.
CK: Neither do I! I don’t judge myself.
DM: Being kind to yourself is key. Thank you. I love you.
CK: I love you, beautiful woman.
Total Control premieres 8.30pm, Sunday October 13, on the ABC and iview.