Michelle Guthrie, Justin Milne front ABC inquiry over political interference in Canberra
Michelle Guthrie has hit back at Justin Milne’s claim she lied to an inquiry into political interference at the ABC, as explosive details emerged about why she was sacked.
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Michelle Guthrie has hit back after being accused of fabricating evidence to an inquiry into political interference at the ABC, as explosive new details emerged about why she was sacked.
In testimony before the inquiry in Canberra today, former ABC chairman Justin Milne accused the former ABC managing director of making up a conversation where he allegedly told her to sack political journalist Andrew Probyn after a complaint from then-Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull.
The two former ABC bosses are completely at odds about their conversation on June 15 this year, with Ms Guthrie claiming Mr Milne said words to the effect of: “Malcolm hates Probyn ... and you have to shoot him.”
She claims to have replied that she couldn’t “fire a journalist for making a mistake, I probably make ten mistakes a day, and that can’t be the test for firing someone.”
Mr Milne is said to have responded: “Your mistakes don’t upset the Prime Minister.”
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In his testimony today, Mr Milne categorically denied ever telling her to “shoot” Probyn or that Mr Turnbull hated him.
“That’s a script that she’s written,” Mr Milne said.
He added that it had been a “robust” conversation with Ms Guthrie but he had never berated her and “didn’t think” he had said anything about Mr Probyn.
“Guthrie gives as good as she gets when it comes to professional arguments,” he said.
Ms Guthrie has rejected Mr Milne’s claim that she had fabricated details of the discussion, saying “it absolutely happened” as she fronted the inquiry today.
She said she wrote notes about the conversation about a week after they spoke.
‘SHOCKING’: REASON GUTHRIE WAS SACKED
Ms Guthrie has also hit back at Mr Milne’s claim she was sacked in part after a leadership test where she demonstrated an “extremely poor and unexpected” result.
In a written submission before appearing at the inquiry this morning, Mr Milne said Ms Guthrie scored in the fourth percentile for “integrity” in the test, “meaning only four per cent of people scored below her and 96 per cent scored above” and her score for parameters such as “autocracy, arrogance, criticism and distance” was in the 90th percentile, meaning only 10 per cent of people scored more than her.
He described the results of Ms Guthrie’s leadership test as “shocking” in his testimony this morning.
“They were a source of enormous concern for me,” he said, adding that they were “so far outside the norm” they couldn’t be ignored.
Ms Guthrie responded in her testimony, saying the real reason she believed she was sacked was because she had raised concerns about political interference on Mr Milne, adding the leadership test was “a tool for personal development, not a tool for sacking people”.
Ms Guthrie, who is suing the ABC over her sacking and has received an $800,000 pay out, said she remained “devastated” by her sacking and claimed it was unlawful.
“The board has never explained the need for urgency in relation to my termination,” she said.
“It is apparent that the trigger for my termination was that I made complaints prior to the termination about Mr Milne’s conduct towards me, including his attempts at editorial interference.
“As I set out in my written submission, I observed Mr Milne’s perception of his role as chair as being a conduit to government.
“I certainly felt that Mr Milne amplified, rather than resisted, any actual or perceived concerns of the government when he dealt with me, particularly from April through to September 2018.
“Further, I believe that my resistance of Mr Milne’s attempts at editorial interference soured our professional relationship and was a big cause of what I later learned was his frustration with me in the job as managing director.”
In her submission, Ms Guthrie noted that the ABC’s News Director Gavin Morris had also complained about Mr Milne making complaints on behalf of Mr Turnbull.
“On or about August 2018, Mr Morris had a conversation with me and said words to the effect of: ‘Justin [Milne] WhatsApped me with comments and complaints from Malcolm [Turnbull] about editorial issues but I told him this was inappropriate and that he needed to stop contacting me in this way,” she wrote.
In his written submission, Mr Milne said Ms Guthrie was given an opportunity to discuss her leadership style in mid-July but was “unwilling to change”.
“Ms Guthrie also expressed the view that she was not liked by her team as a result of her being a ‘change agent’. It is my view that whilst people are sometimes resistant to change, this is not an excuse to be a poor leader with an inability to engage with her staff,” he wrote.
In his submission, Mr Milne also addressed claims he behaved inappropriately towards Ms Guthrie, saying: “I emphatically and unequivocally deny that I have inappropriately touched Ms Guthrie.”
“I have never had any inappropriate contact with Ms Guthrie and note that she has not provided any evidence or identified any witnesses that are able to corroborate her allegation.”
Mr Milne, in the written submission before the inquiry, also denied ever calling Ms Guthrie “the missus”.
He added that while he had used the term “chicks” to describe women, it was “never as a pejorative or in a denigrating manner”.
This morning, Mr Milne told the inquiry he still considered that sacking Ms Guthrie was the “right step to take” and that the ABC board considered the move for three months.
Mr Milne told the inquiry he resigned “not as a concession of any wrongdoing” but to protect the ABC “which is bigger than any one person”.
Donny Walford, an ABC board member, told the inquiry Ms Guthrie had aired a number of complaints about Mr Milne to her in a phone conversation on August 22 but did not raise concerns about political interference at the time.
“He yells at me”, “he touched my back” and “he interferes with management” were the three complaints Ms Walford said Ms Guthrie made to her about Mr Milne.
Ms Walford told the inquiry “I can’t unknow what I know,” saying she felt compelled to take the complaints to the board with Ms Guthrie’s permission.
Mr Milne was present at the board meeting where she raised the matter.
ABC board director Joseph Gersh told the hearing that the board’s decision to fire Ms Guthrie was purely about her performance, not her complaints about Mr Milne.
Dr Jane Connors, another ABC Board member, agreed Ms Guthrie’s termination had nothing to do with political interference.
She also hit back at claims in the media that the board had not taken any action about Ms Guthrie’s claims, in an 11 page dossier sent to the board on September 21, that Mr Milne called for Ms Alberici and Mr Probyn to be sacked after complaints from Mr Turnbull.
Dr Conners said the board would have dealt with it even if the allegations had not become public.
She said she was “appalled” by the email Mr Milne sent suggesting the ABC “get rid” of Ms Alberici because the government “fricken hate her” but questioned why Ms Guthrie had taken months to raise her concerns with them.
TURNBULL, MILNE ‘GOOD ACQUAINTANCES’
Mr Milne denied Mr Turnbull had put political pressure on him during his tenure as ABC chairman to sack journalists Andrew Probyn and Emma Alberici, saying that the former prime minister had “never, ever” required “anything like that, through implication or otherwise”.
He also described the former prime minister as a “good acquaintance” that he has known for a long time, noting he had attended family events for the Turnbulls and had been to their home.
The pair became friends during their time at OzEmail, an internet company co-founded by Mr Turnbull.
Mr Milne noted Mr Turnbull would express his disappointment when the ABC’s journalism was “subpar” but the then-prime minister also did that publicly.
On the claims of political interference, Mr Milne said in his submission: “I have never allowed any politician or government body to influence or attempt to influence my role as Chairperson of the ABC and unequivocally reject any and all allegations of political or government influence, attempted or otherwise with the ABC.”
Mr Milne denied he had ever said “Malcolm will go ballistic” to ABC staff about Triple J’s decision to move the date of the Hottest 100 from Australia Day.
He added that Mr Turnbull had never raised the issue with him but acknowledged that he knew the government would be unhappy with the move.
Mr Milne also denied he ever gave Ms Guthrie a directive to sack Ms Alberici in an email where he told her to “get rid” of the journalist and that the government “fricken hate her”.
He told the inquiry he had used “regrettably blunt language” in the email but he argued that it was never an order, only his view, and that it was taken out of context.
Mr Milne had sent the message after a complaint from Mr Turnbull about Ms Alberici’s article on company tax cuts.
After being grilled about the email today, Mr Milne said he had got the impression that the government hated Ms Alberici through the “zeitgeist” and from comments Mr Turnbull made on the floor of parliament.
He denied Mr Turnbull had ever directly or indirectly told him to sack a journalist.
Mr Milne added that it was a “general view” within the ABC that its funding would be impacted if the government was unhappy with its reporting.
ABC JOURNO SLAMS GUTHRIE OVER ‘FALSE CLAIMS’
Ms Alberici lashed out at Ms Guthrie on Twitter on Thursday night, disagreeing with the former ABC managing director’s submission to the inquiry that her stories contained false information.
In a pre-written submission Ms Guthrie lodged to the inquiry, she claimed Ms Alberici was “reprimanded” for her reports about the government’s company tax cuts.
Ms Alberici, who is the ABC’s chief economic correspondent, defended her stories and blasted Ms Guthrie in nine tweets, accusing her of lying in her submission.
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— Emma Alberici (@albericie) November 29, 2018
Read it here
Ms Guthrie makes a number of false claims the most egregious of which is that I received a “reprimand†for writing stories that, after much overblown angst, were found to be accurate in substance pic.twitter.com/FAxhjAuXAF
Mr Milne resigned as ABC chairman in late September after a firestorm over claims he directed former ABC managing director Michelle Guthrie to sack reporters Ms Alberici and Mr Probyn after complaints from the then-Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull. He stepped down just days after Ms Guthrie was sacked.
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