‘Stop talking’: Ex-Hawks president, journo’s heated TV debate over Clarko drama and off-field swipes

Jeff Kennett and veteran journalist Caroline Wilson have engaged in a heated debate over the handling of Alastair Clarkson’s exit from the club.

Jeff Kennett and Caroline Wilson went at it.

Former Hawthorn president Jeff Kennett and veteran journalist Caroline Wilson have engaged in a heated debate over the handling of Alastair Clarkson’s exit from the club, and his continued comments about the Hawks’ decision-making despite leaving.

Kennett left at the end of 2022, following a heated campaign between his preferred successor Peter Nankivell and ‘Hawks for Change’ contender Andy Gowers, the latter of whom eventually took over.

But since the former Victorian premier’s exit he has continued to pop up in the media, including complaining about the club’s late 2023 decision to put his life membership on hold, citing the ongoing legal issues created by the racism saga.

Watch every game of every round this Toyota AFL Premiership Season LIVE with no ad-breaks during play on Kayo. New to Kayo? Start your free trial today >

Kennett argued the Hawks were being “petty and vindictive” with the move.

He has also come in for questioning over the handling of the aborted handover from Alastair Clarkson to Sam Mitchell, with original plans for Clarkson to coach through 2022 as Mitchell prepared to take over, before Clarkson left early with a $1 million payout to sit on the sidelines.

Those matters have sparked previous debates between Kennett and Wilson, with the pair trading barbs in a heated chat on Nine’s Footy Classified on Monday night.

Below is a transcript of their discussion.

Jeff Kennett and Caroline Wilson went at it.

Caroline Wilson: So Jeff despite the divisions at the club when you left and the off field problems clearly still facing the club, the Gowers and now Ash Klein administration seems to be leading a fairly stable operation, and yet you won’t let up on them. Do you think it’s time to stop talking and backbiting at the club and give them a go? Because you’ve had two gos at it. The first one was very successful. Second one, a few mistakes at the end. Do you think it’s time to stop talking and let them govern?

Jeff Kennett: Let me start by answering your question, by giving you some idea of how I manage when I’m in a position of authority, that might be as Premier, president of a club - Just one moment. Let me finish. Let me start and finish without being interrupted, please. I always use the basis that an individual on their own never wins a thing, teams of people do, whether that’s a football field, a government, whether it’s a not for profit, and that was something I learned in the army. So an individual can’t win a battle.

So always in a position of leadership, I’ve always put around me a group of people who form a board or a Cabinet who have different experiences than I have to have frank exchanges and then hopefully deliver positive outcomes, and that’s what’s happened at Hawthorn.

So you say I made a mess of my time at Hawthorn. Let me just ask you the question, please. I left with a mess? When I became president in 2005 having been asked to take the job, we hadn’t won a premiership for 14 years. 14 years later, the club had won four. When I joined the club, we were criticised for making some investments in the entertainment area, which we held on to against opposition. We sold them at the best time possible, which gave us $70 million which is now being put into the development area.

CW: I have a lot of respect for-

JK: Sorry, can I just?

CW: No, no, no, we only have 12 minutes, Jeff, we can’t have a history lesson!

JK: Then please let me-

CW: In your last year, the split with the premiership coach which was so acrimonious that he won’t come back to the club, is a mess. With a $1 million payout - it’s not fair to have a history lesson, we don’t have time!

JK: Sorry, you said I left the club in a mess. Four premierships, a new facility worth $700 million is being built, and as you’ve admitted, now, we’ve made the right decision in terms of changing our coach. Now I would imagine any player past or present would have taken those 14 years with that result, four premierships, a new facility - we’ll be the only club in the AFL that actually owns its own land and its own facility. And you said that’s a mess.

CW: But you haven’t answered my original question. Do you think it’s time to let the new governors govern?

JK: They do and they are.

CW: Why do you keep backbiting?

JK: I don’t keep backbiting. What I do-

CW: You complained about your life membership. You complained about where they held the AGM. You’ve-

JK: Oh, for God’s sake.

CW: -a claim which has already cost them a million dollars in legal fees. Why don’t you let them do it now? Because you’ve had your go. Jeff and I wrote a very long and complimentary column of you after your-

JK: Must’ve been before the turn of the century.

CW: No, well, it was, it was after your first stint, I think you six years, I was complimentary. No, you’ve given us the history. I said in your last year, you left a mess. I know what happens when favourite sons have blues with clubs. They can damage the clubs. And Alastair and your club, certainly, when you were there, was split. The million dollar payout, you might say he deserved it, but that wasn’t the idea, and it was a contract you oversaw, and then the further million dollars in legal fees following an investigation that I know you didn’t handle, but you were president at the time. That was a mess. Jeff, the last year was a mess.

JK: All right, can I get a word?

CW: Just answer the question.

JK: Alright, so firstly, I am absolutely opposed to any organisation, including yours at News (Corporation, a rival company), giving in to allegations-

CW: I don’t work for News.

JK: Well, you’re part, sorry. You’re part of the Nine Network. Of any organisation being forced or tempted to give money to those who make allegations where those allegations are not proven. So yes, I have been writing to the club as a member and as a former president to make sure that the board understands that any payment to those who made the allegations or to our coaches is totally a misuse of our vision-

Sam McClure: Which came about because of a botched report.

JK: No, no, no, no. No, no, the report was alright. What happened? All we sought to do was get stories from other Indigenous players and staff members about what their experiences are.

SM: You were completely unprepared for what the ramifications were.

JK: When we got that report, we were shocked, like the public were, and then someone leaped that report to the ABC and they ran it. So we will not and should not, nor should you, nor should any organisation pay money to people who make accusations.

SM: What happened wasn’t the media’s fault, Jeff. I’m sorry.

JK: I’m sorry you’re wrong Sam, you are so wrong. The report was done properly. As soon as we got the report, as we’re bound to do, we gave it to the Integrity Unit at the AFL before they and we could determine how we take this report and what we did, someone leaked it to the ABC. That’s when it blew out of water. Now I’m opposed, not just in football, but anywhere, that you pay compensation for those who just make accusations because of the precedent. So right now, the Krakouer are making claims of racial discrimination that go back 40 years. The AFL and the clubs are going to have to deal with concussion. That’s a very difficult issue, but we’ve got to prove the case, and you can’t just have people-

CW: -has cost Hawthorn and your members a million dollars.

JK: Sorry Caro, you have consistently argued that we should pay out money and for the-

CW: -no, I’ve reported that’s what’s going to happen, I haven’t said you should. I’ve reported it’s going to happen-

JK: Well, this hasn’t happened yet. Nor should it to the coaches, because, as I say, they were embarrassed terribly. But if they have a claim, it’s against the ABC, there’s no doubt about that.

CW: Do you regret the relationship split with Alastair?

JK: No! Well, what do you mean a relationship split, the fact that we’ve decided to have a new coach?

CW: No, no, the fact that Alastair now won’t attend official reunions with the club, he’s gone to private reunions with his players, but he won’t attend official reunions, and he left the club in acrimony.

JK: Well, I’m sorry, he didn’t leave the club in acrimony-

CW: -yes he did.

JK: Well, we had to deal with-

Kane Cornes: Jeff, are there any regrets of your time? Because you seem really comfortable with absolute legacy, and zero regrets of what Caro’s asked?

JK: No no, because we had an agreement with Alastair. I think it was he was going to coach through to 2022, we’re going to talk to him, at the end of 21 he came to the football department, halfway through 21 and said, I want to talk about my contract.

KC: So was it a mistake to have that succession plan? You’ve got the right coach now so it’s all well that ends well, but to have that plan-

JK: Kane I don’t think so, because a) we honoured Clarko, we wanted him to finish his term, but to continue as a mentor for Sam was that final-

CW: Neither man wanted that situation.

JK: Well that’s not what they agreed to initially.

CW: But they didn’t want it.

JK: But the change, Caro, that wasn’t our fault. That was their decision. And then, as you said, we did pay Clarko a million dollars, we thought, after 14 or 15 years as a senior coach and contributing to four premierships, he was entitled.

CW: I’m not arguing with that but I think clubs agree now that good governance is not these massive payouts.

JK: Sorry. The AFL themselves are talking with the coaches about writing into contracts either a six month or a 12 month retrenchment payment. So don’t say the clubs aren’t-

CW: No, that’s because the AFL don’t want clubs to sign contracts that they don’t stick to ... but you’re not a silly man, and you knew Alistair Clarkson very well, and you know Sam Mitchell very well. Surely you’d see, you’ve seen this happen before. Didn’t you have the foresight to see that there were going to be problems?

JK: No.

CW: And do you-

JK: Hang on, don’t say you the whole time, the board made the decision. We had a contract. We work as a collegiate body, as I’ve done as Premier, as I’ve done with my not for profits. So we made a decision, Alastair have a contract until 22 alright, we said we weren’t going to extend that for a whole range of pieces, but we were prepared for him to continue in a mentoring role, and we’d pay him while Sam had that year, first year as his coach.

CW: Sounds like you’re passing the buck, if you don’t mind me saying it, you still haven’t answered the question.

JK: What’s the question?

CW: About your relationship with Alastair, the club’s damaged relationship with Alastair.

JK: It might be from his point of view. But I don’t bear grudges against anyone, right? Life is too short.

Matthew Lloyd: Are you saying that these things happen because Alistair wanted to keep going, and it’s his problem, not yours?

JK: No no, I wouldn’t say that. Alastair asked us to reconsider his contract right in the middle of 21, I think it was. The board decided, no, we’re not going to extend it for another three years, the way we were travelling. Right decision? We had a young man who had been trained partly by Alastair, over in the west as well, and it was time to give him. It’s so often the case, if you’re looking for a leader, don’t always look for another leader, another senior coach. Look for a good well trained, well prepared, 2IC. Let them flourish. And that’s what the board did with Sam.

CW: You were right. He was the right choice.

JK: Well you’re saying that now.

CW: No, no, no. I always thought Sam Mitchell was the right choice.

JK: No, I was pommeled by some of you good journalists, because... (overlapping dialogue) Because we made two decisions. We made the right decision in terms of governance and the interests of the club, and we paid Alistair a million dollars over two payments-

SM: Not to coach.

JK: Not to coach, out of courtesy for what he had contributed.

CW: Jeff, I wish we had all night. But to quickly micromanage you. Because I don’t know why you would have spoken publicly about your life membership that you were going to get, and you called, I think the club being I think you said they were being petty. You also even criticised the fact that the AGM was being held at Waverley, a place you championed. In fact, it was one of your great moves, the deal you did for Waverley before you became president. Why would you come out with comments like that when Andrew Gowers and Ash Klein are trying to run a club, you were always going to get your life membership. Did you need to make it all about you?

JK: On terms of the AGMs. We’ve always had them, not at Waverley in real terms, except during Covid.

CW: It’s not up to you any more!

JK: Hold it! Please listen! But we’ve held them at the Hawthorn Town Hall. After covid, many of us thought it was good to get the members back together, to give them the opportunity of meeting with the players. They decided not to do that. That’s fine. In terms of the life membership. Andy rang me up. He rang me up and said, ‘Oh, Jeffrey, yes, yes. I’m just letting you know that, as per the Constitution, you’ve been awarded life membership’. I said, ‘Oh, thank you very much, Andy’, but he said, ‘we’re not going to present it to you’. I said, ‘what?’ He said, ‘Oh no, we’re not going to present it to you for a while. We’ll decide the time-’

CW: Because of the difficult timing and it wouldn’t have gone down well.

Originally published as ‘Stop talking’: Ex-Hawks president, journo’s heated TV debate over Clarko drama and off-field swipes