Big Bulldogs loss reveals more concerning numbers for Ross Lyon and the Saints

After Thursday night’s drubbing, Ross Lyon was involved in a tense exchange about the crowd – but, as JOSH BARNES finds out, the other St Kilda numbers are more concerning.

Ross Lyon would have woken up with a few headaches after Thursday’s 72-point drubbing at the hands of the Western Bulldogs.

The crowd number probably wasn’t one of them given his side’s uncompetitive effort, but a classically Ross press conference exchange with our reporter Ronny Lerner raised questions worth answering on what an “acceptable” crowd is between two Victorian sides on a Thursday night

So here are some facts.

The 20,508 at Marvel Stadium was the lowest crowd between the two sides in Victoria since 1999 and the lowest at the roofed stadium, outside of Covid.

To answer one of Lyon’s questions, the two teams have averaged 32,495.2 spectators at 31 matches at Docklands – not counting one 2020 match.

The Dogs hosted the Saints on Thursday at that venue last year drew 26,719.

To answer another one of Ross’ questions, the other Thursday night matches have drawn pretty well this year.

“Because you go to the crowds and you’re diving into it, what do Thursday night crowds really look like for most teams in the competition?,” the coach said.

The 13 Thursday night games played this year have averaged a crowd of 45,905, and that includes one played in Darwin.

Two Victorian sides played at Marvel Stadium in round 8, when 35,439 fans watched Essendon and North Melbourne, and 35,725 were in the house just last week for Hawthorn and the Western Bulldogs.

The Saints would surely be disappointed by the crowd for the Dogs loss, even if Lyon said: “20,000 is decent I reckon for a Thursday night I would think, pretty good”.

THE REBUILD ROAD CONTINUES

St Kilda fans are preternaturally used to excuses and let downs, so the 72-point drubbing against to the Dogs was probably just another defeat.

But the excuses were hard to find.

The Saints were the older team on average on Thursday night, with an average age of 26 years and five months, compared to the Dogs with 25 years and 10 months.

On average games for the selected sides, the Saints won 115.8-104.9.

St Kilda had one player under the age of 21 in its side, and the Dogs had three.

Even on the quality of draft picks, the ledger was close, with seven Saints playing who were selected in the top 20 of a draft, just behind the Bulldogs, who had eight.

But nobody heading to Marvel Stadium really expected the Saints to win.

The Saints and Dogs met in a forgotten elimination final back at the Gabba in 2020, a game Brett Ratten’s side won.

Since then, the Dogs have made a grand final, played in two other finals campaigns, and should go again this year, while the Saints have made September once, an elimination final defeat in 2023.

The Saints after Thursday night’s loss to the Bulldogs. Picture: Michael Willson/AFL Photos

Since Ross Lyon remembered the drive back to Moorabbin, the club has steadfastly stuck to a plan of prioritising the future and eyeing the long term.

They would love some of those draft mistakes back – taking Hunter Clark nine spots before Ed Richards in 2017 looked rough on Thursday – but most of them are from an earlier regime.

The crew in charge now is bullish about a young crop they have drafted, and it’s too early to judge most of them.

The fact that most of them aren’t playing is probably judgement enough right now – Mattaes Phillipou is the only player under 21 on the Saints injury list .

If we’re judging some of the older faces, it doesn’t look great.

Dan Butler was subbed off with four disposals on Thursday.

You would have been forgiven for forgetting Zak Jones was out there until he gave away an undisciplined free kick in a seven-disposal night.

Jimmy Webster had 12 touches, all uncontested, Clark himself had just 14.

Brad Hill had 16 and kicked a nice goal, but that was about it.

The Saints were overwhelmed by Sam Darcy and Aaron Naughton when the game was on, and Anthony Caminiti battled, but you could have put Stephen Silvagni on a stepladder and he would have been no chance when St Kilda’s experienced midfield lost the inside-50 count by 28.

Aaron Naughton kicks a goal

Lyon struggled to find winners post-match.

“I know where we are at and what we’re working through. The club has got a strategic plan,” he said.

“We are better than what we displayed tonight but they seem to have our number.

“There is no magic bullet in the AFL you have got to do the work and do the time and keep adding talent. There are clubs out there that have been rebuilding for six or nine years and are starting to get some traction now. We don’t want it to take that long but at the minute that’s where we’re at.”

St Kilda is doing the right thing in stripping back and avoiding quick fixes.

There is just little reward for it almost three years in to Lyon’s second coming and a lot of those kids taken as part of the longer view weren’t even given a chance to show some reward on Thursday.

For his sake, and more for Saints fans sakes, they have to hope it doesn’t take six or nine years to be back up the top.

‘DARCE DOMINANT’

As Dogs fans watch the highlights of Sam Darcy’s brilliant return over the next week, Luke Beveridge will have to remind his players that they can have too much of a good thing.

When asked pre-match about adjusting to Darcy’s giant return to the forward line, the Dogs coach told Fox Footy: “The challenge is for us to not become too predictable … obviously when he presents we are going to come to him”.

The Dogs got a little predictable, but not overwhelmingly on Thursday, and it clearly didn’t stop them putting up their biggest score of the season.

When going inside-50, Darcy was targeted by the kicker on 14 occasions, and he took five inside-50 marks.

That is probably about the right amount of focus from 68 inside-50s, but it is so easy to fall into the trap of just falling into those giant arms.

Young Dog Ryley Sanders calls it being “Darce dominant”.

“I noticed especially when we played Freo and Brisbane (earlier this year) we were a bit Darce dominant,” Sanders told this masthead in the winning rooms.

“It’s just so hard because I remember when we played in Brisbane I had a kick that was a 50-50 but when it is Darce, it is actually a good kick.

“I think it is just finding that balance because obviously I felt when he was in that really good form before he got injured, like Fremantle, they had four people on him. It was crazy.

“Obviously we have Naughts who is a star, so if we can isolate them it is really hard to stop.

“He (Darcy) is just a star, it is pretty crazy to have him, he is a once in a generation player.”

With Marcus Bontempelli held to 14 disposals by a dogged Marcus Windhager – the Dogs champion had only had less than 14 touches 10 times in 247 games before Thursday, four of which came in his debut season – Beveridge was impressed his skipper and star forward could help others.

Beveridge thought Bontempelli’s blocking around stoppages helped other midfielders and Darcy’s lighthouse presence helped other forwards, allowing Aaron Naughton into the game.

“We know Sam will help but we have still got to spread the load and that will be our mandate week-to-week now,” he said.

“They’ll help others play well, and Marcus did that (against St Kilda).

“There is a case to be made that Sam had an influence on others playing well.”

Darcy – and Bontempelli – are rare players that can win games by themselves, but the Dogs will be best served using them wisely.

Originally published as Big Bulldogs loss reveals more concerning numbers for Ross Lyon and the Saints