Joe Hockey confirms. Donald Trump never cheats … at golf

Joe Hockey is the former federal treasurer (2013-2015) and Australia’s ambassador to the United States (2016-2020). In this tumultuous week in American politics, I spoke to him on Wednesday.

Fitz: So, Joe, you and I have discussed this many times in private. But let me ask you in public for the first time. I, still, seriously have no clue how anyone in America let alone a potential 51 per cent of voters could look at the four years of Trump from 2016 to 2020 – particularly after what happened on January 6, 2021 – and say, “Yep, we’d like another four years of that”.

JH: The deep division in America is based on policy differences between the parties, and it is not just about wanting Donald Trump back. There are deep differences between the parties on taxation, immigration, abortion, gun ownership, tariffs, and health care – a whole range of issues that affect Americans everyday lives. And, Donald Trump is speaking for, and to, a huge chunk of Americans who feel they’ve been disenfranchised by Democrats who are more New York and less Milwaukee.

Joe Hockey with former president Donald Trump at the Trump National golf club in Virginia, USA, in 2018.

Fitz: OK, you were Australia’s ambassador in Washington for four years. Back then, your job was to be diplomatic. We’re now four years later, and you can surely speak the truth. To most of us, from a distance, the Trump administration looked like complete and utter chaos, a revolving door of cabinet members, of scandals, of outrageous things that would have been unthinkable in the age of Obama and any other president for that matter. So, say it, Joe. That was chaos.

JH: Well, it was extreme disruption to the American political system. And we shouldn’t be surprised that a disrupter can hit politics in the same way as disrupters have hit every other aspect of our lives. Donald Trump came to power declaring war on Washington. And that’s what he delivered. It was at times ugly, it was unpredictable, but he wouldn’t be in the race today if nearly half of America didn’t think he did a good job.

Fitz: I love the story you told me of playing golf with Trump and him standing on top of a hill, inviting you to hit it through his outstretched arms to make the green, only for a quiet voice from a Secret Service agent to say from the bushes behind you, “I wouldn’t do that, sir.” When you’re dealing with Trump like that, on the golf course, away from the microphones, what kind of a man is he? Is he the batshit crazy, bombastic bastard that he appears to be?

JH: Not at all. He's got a curious mind.

Fitz: Really? You're talking an intellectually curious mind?

JH: He asks a lot of questions about a lot of diverse subjects.

Fitz: I confess my shock.

JH: I know, it surprises everyone, but it’s the truth. He doesn’t lecture, he is not bombastic, and when it comes to golf, he doesn’t cheat.

Fitz: You mean when he’s playing with you, you haven’t seen him cheat.

JH: He doesn’t need to. He’s a very good player, a genuine 12 or 13 handicap. And you know, he’s not necessarily the first person that you’d ask to a dinner party, but he’s very open, he’s got diverse interests. I’ve met a number of US presidents, and spent a bit of time with them. There’s no doubt Bill Clinton is fantastic company – and at golf, he makes sure he plays his best shot every time, even if he plays it three times. But a great guy. George Bush: self-deprecating, interesting, very, very funny. Barack Obama is professorial in demeanour.

Fitz: And Joe Biden?

JH: Joe Biden is a very decent human being with a big heart, and could talk under wet cement. He’s someone I admire for all that he’s been through and all that he’s done.

Fitz: In your conversations with Joe Biden, were there ever any signs of cognitive decline, even signs that he was on the downhill slope of his intellectual peak?

United States ambassador Joe Hockey and businessman Kerry Stokes during the state dinner for Scott and Jenny Morrison hosted by Donald Trump and First Lady Melania Trump at the White House in 2019.Credit: Alex Ellinghausen

JH: No. And I must say there is a deep sadness in America about his decline. You know, I just spent four days at the Republican convention in Milwaukee, and not once did anyone celebrate his cognitive decline. It was barely mentioned because so many families have a grandparent or a parent that has gone through that sort of decline. And there was just a deep sadness across the country, about his health.

Fitz: Surely with the clear exception of Trump who has been typically brutal and nasty. You’re a conservative. If you were an American, which way would you vote?

JH: [Seven second pause.] I’d ... be waiting to see how Kamala performs over the next few weeks.

Fitz: Joe, how could you, I mean you personally, even contemplate voting for somebody with 34 convictions so far with more court cases pending, someone who’s obviously dishonest, dangerous, and clearly doesn’t respect the Constitution? How could you vote for him, even with a stun gun to your head?

JH: Well, people vote for him on his policies. People vote for him because he believes in lower taxes, less regulation, a more isolationist America. If you’re earning $12.50 an hour and have been for three years, and seen your prices go up 20 per cent, you want someone to fix your problems. You want to stop illegal immigration, and two and a half million people illegally came across the Mexican border last year. Australians go batshit nuts when one or two boats come across the Indian Ocean, and that’s bipartisan Australia. You walk along some of the streets of American cities, and you can see human beings like zombies drugged out of their brains living on the street. And Trump comes along and he says, “I’m going to fix your problems”.

Fitz: But do you believe he can fix those problems? Like, he was going to “build a wall, make Mexico pay for it”? He didn’t and they didn’t.

JH: At least he identifies the issues that Americans care about. Of course, no one believes he can fix every problem, but at least he’s talking about the issues that matter to America – and that’s what Kamala Harris will have to do better on.

Fitz: All right, on that obvious subject, I follow it very closely. It seems to me that the whole Kamala Harris move was brilliantly summed up in a Herald headline the other day, “Suddenly, Trump, not Biden, is the buffoonish old guy in the race”. To my eyes, it feels like the whole game has changed instantly.

JH: I think the optics are different to the reality. Everything in America is about people coming out to vote. And what happened was they weren’t going to come out and vote for Joe Biden, weren’t going to stand in the snow and rain and cold and go for Joe. That’s changed. So Kamala Harris has reinvigorated Democrats and everything will be about her getting the people to come out to vote. And really, the whole thing comes down to 800,000 and maybe as few as 400,000 people in four states. The whole election will come down to individual towns in four states – it’s what they think about the Harris/Trump match-up that counts, not all the rest of it – and it’s going to be very, very close.

Fitz: All right, Joe, but get angry. Trump said that the 2020 election was stolen. I don’t believe that. You don’t believe that. Trump doesn’t believe that. And yet, he still said it and bloody near mounted a coup! It was outrageous.

JH: He was wrong. And he’s wrong to keep talking about it. But to much of America he looks like the strong man because of it, and they want a strong president. The images from the horrendous assassination attempt are on the minds of Americans and people around the world forever, and it was hugely symbolic of, of what Donald Trump believes in and what Americans want – a strong man, with his fist in the air, shouting fight, even after being shot.

Fitz: On the subject of the attempted assassination, when your American friends, or media, or whoever say, “God saved Trump”, please tell me you grab them by the shoulders and say, “Stop talking embarrassing twaddle”?

Donald Trump, running to return to the US presidency, arrives to the final day of the Republican National Convention.Credit: Bloomberg

JH: I’m not going to go down this path with you. And you know what? The hand of someone was involved in that moment, and Donald Trump was seriously affected. I saw him walk into the Republican convention. He’s someone who’s told multiple friends that he views crying as a great weakness. And yet, when he re-emerged after the assassination attempt, two days later, he had tears in his eyes. And that was a man that was very aware of how different, you know, life could have been, or death could have been, bar for the whisker of a second. It was extraordinary and I defy you to argue that you wouldn’t be affected by such an event.

Fitz: Yup. But I defy you to maintain that God reached down and diverted the bullet to miss Trump and kill a fireman father of two daughters.

JH: Politically, what is interesting is that as president, Donald Trump went to church only twice. He attended church far less than all of his predecessors. And yet, somehow, he has managed to win, hands down, the evangelical vote.

Fitz: As a serious question, do you think he has a scintilla’s scintilla of genuine religious belief?

JH: I think he's got strong principles, personal principles.

Fitz: I cannot believe you said that!

JH: I think he does have principles. Yes. I think he does.

Fitz: What ones, beyond “win at any cost”?

JH: That’s certainly a strong principle. He wants to win at any cost. He says things that make me cringe. I wish he wouldn’t be on social media. But I’ve seen him personally be very generous to people. And he’s a good father.

Fitz: I can’t believe you said that, either. For me, a bare beginning for good fatherhood would not see him making time with Stormy Daniels while his wife is pregnant. Moving on, do you know J.D. Vance and do you think he was a wise choice as running mate?

JH: I’ve met him once. He’s got an incredible life story and his book Hillbilly Elegy is extraordinary. It’s hard to believe someone would have gone through such a shockingly tough upbringing and rise so far – that resonates with a lot of Americans.

Fitz: How can you respect a man who goes from comparing Trump to Hitler, to now carrying on as if he is the second coming of Abraham Lincoln? Someone noted on Twitter that while Vance has got no convictions at all, Trump now has 34 of them, which seems to sum up their partnership.

JH: Vance grew up in severe poverty in hillbilly country. Abandoned by his father, his mum was a drug addict and it was his grandmother who gave him a chance though even she was battling alcoholism. He joined the marines, studied law at Yale and made a fortune in Silicon Valley. The guy is just 39 – sounds impressive to me.

Fitz: From a diplomatic point of view, what of your successor as American ambassador, Kevin Rudd? He called Trump “the most destructive president in history. He drags America and democracy through the mud. He thrives on fomenting, not healing, division.” And these were just his opening remarks. In my view he was right in every particular, but how much of a problem will that be if Trump, God forbid, does become the president again, for Australian/American relations?

JH: Well, I think Kevin Rudd is doing a good job. And he’s working really hard to be his best for Australia. Very senior Republicans have said to me that Rudd’s reached out to them and frankly, I would hope that President Trump 2.0 is not going to try and tell Australia who our ambassador should be.

Fitz: If you were a betting man, who would you put your money on after this tumultuous week?

JH: Well, if it’s too close to call, it slightly favours Trump because he can win the election with less than 50 per cent of the voters, because of the electoral boundaries. I think Trump is still the most likely to win.

Joe Hockey takes a photo of the US president Donald Trump and a worker during the official opening of businessman Anthony Pratt’s recycling and paper plant in Ohio, during the prime minister Scott Morrison’s state visit to the US in 2019.Credit: Alex Ellinghausen

Fitz: I can never quite work out what your business advisory firm Bondi Partners does,
beyond facilitating Australian businesses into the American market and versa-vicky.
But it certainly gives you a close perspective on the economic implications of this coming
election. Who will be better for the global economy generally, and the Australian economy specifically?

JH: Well, Donald Trump will spend more, tax less, and cut regulation and that might be better for the American economy. He’s also said, which surprises people, that he’s not going to cut health or welfare so it’s an odd combination. On the other hand, he’s going to increase tariffs, which is really bad for the rest of the world and bad for America. So there are many things that Donald Trump is promising that I would disagree with and see as bad economic policy but you have to deal with what you got.

Fitz: As a former federal treasurer, you’d have to acknowledge that spending more and taxing less is populist nonsense that can only, ultimately, blow out the American deficit and be ultimately bad for everyone?

JH: Yes ... but Americans don’t seem to care about debt anymore. As always, it will end up in tears someday.

Fitz: Finally, what of you personally? One of the staff of my erstwhile biographical subject Kim Beazley told me that when Kim would fly back to Canberra as American ambassador himself, he would have tears in his eyes the moment he set foot there again, he just missed it so much. How much do you personally miss the cut and thrust of the Australian political life?

JH: I’ve moved on. I had a great career and met many great Australians. But I’m determined not to spend my life, wistfully looking backwards. Right now, here in Washington DC, I feel as though I’m living in modern Rome, and it’s fascinating. So many of the world’s affairs are dictated by what comes out of DC, making it the geopolitical capital of the world. This has been an extraordinary time in history, and I feel like I’m right in the middle of it.

Fitz: America, you’re standing in it. Thanks, Joe.

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