Secret Dons tape: Read the explosive meeting transcript

THE extraordinary 2013 recording of Bombers chairman Paul Little, coach James Hird, senior assistant coach Mark Thompson and football manager Danny Corcoran lays bare their fury.

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THE extraordinary 2013 recording of Bombers chairman Paul Little, coach James Hird, senior assistant coach Mark Thompson and football manager Danny Corcoran lays bare their fury as they come to the view they have been betrayed by the AFL.

Here is the transcript of the explosive meeting.

LITTLE: ... If we don’t cooperate with this process – we’re reading into this – if we don’t cooperate they have the power to stand down.

And we don’t know if that refers to individuals or the club.

But they have used that as a veiled threat in their communication with us. And we’ve gone back early this morning and said unless that threat is removed we won’t even talk to them again, we’ll just handle this legally.

HIRD: Do they have the ability if they charge you, if they’ve got reasonable enough grounds, to stand you down in their rules, as individuals?

I don’t know how they charge, to stand the club down, but what do they mean by, if we don’t cooperate?

LITTLE: Well, I think ... they’re my words, ‘cooperate’. ….

Former Essendon chairman Paul Little believed the AFL was using its powers as a “veiled threat” to force the club to co-operate. Picture: Tim Carrafa

LITTLE: This is what we need to understand right now, today: What are our options? How can we stop this? Can it be stopped? If we stop it, what does it mean?

And that’s where we’re sort of headed now. Because one thing that Ray (Gunston) and I have learnt, probably more me than Ray in the last few days, is that they’ve absolutely said one thing and done the opposite.

I know you’re going to say ‘I told you so’, but we had to try, Bomber.

THOMPSON: Yeah that’s fine, yeah.

LITTLE: We had to try and bring some mediation, negotiation, settlement to this thing. And every single issue that I agreed on with Gil McLachlan, and I met with him the other night, has pretty much been reversed now in this note here.

So I’m not sure there’s a lot of point of ... Ray and I both agree we should have one more attempt - and it’s pointless doing it with McLachlan, but probably needs to be (Andrew) Demetriou - one more attempt of trying to understand what’s in their head. What they’re really trying to achieve.

But I think in the meantime we just push as hard as we can legally now. As hard as we can.

HIRD: I think if you read Caroline Wilson’s article you get a pretty good idea of what’s in their head. It’s almost exactly what’s happened right now.

CORCORAN: It’s happened all the way through.

HIRD: It’s happened all the way through. (Someone says ‘mmm’ in background)

And they want the club to cop the heaviest suspension ever to a club, they want me to cop the heaviest suspension ever as an individual and Danny to cop a suspension.

I’m not sure about Reidy and Bomber, she didn’t really go into that, did she?

CORCORAN: No.

HIRD: They’re a pack of f--king lying pr--ks - and they have done from the start.

Former Essendon coach James Hird hasn’t held back in his assessment of how the AFL was handling the drug scandal issue. Picture: Scott Barbour/Getty Images

THOMPSON: So what do you want to do?

CORCORAN: The biggest thing is for me ... you go ...

THOMPSON: Yeah, what do you want to do?

LITTLE: I want you to continue to trust us but we are not taking for granted how important this is to each of you individually.

I have always said to James that I believe that individually and from a club point of view we’re totally aligned.

I had a discussion with James the other night about some stage individually you might decide you want to do your own thing, and I respect that. I wouldn’t encourage it, but I respect it.

I don’t think that’s where we are right at the moment.

I think we’ve got to understand if we can just stop this thing, because whether it happens today or tomorrow or the following day, it’s inevitable that it’s coming. And I think we have to try and stop it.

Once they serve these notices, I don’t know whether our ability to treat (deal) with this process legally is diluted or not. I don’t know. That’s what we need to find out.

THOMPSON: Well, there’s people that do know that.

Mark " Bomber " Thompson. Picture: Wayne Ludbey

CORCORAN: From Jack (Rush). Jack would know that, yeah.

THOMPSON: Jack would know.

LITTLE: Yeah. So I’m hoping that we can just get some breathing space here and then we can mount our sort of legal attack and we’ll do whatever we can do. But there are no guarantees here and I’ve told Hirdy that, and you need to know that and so does Danny need to know that.

I mean, I don’t think we can do anymore. I’m happy to listen to suggestions, we’ve got all the lawyers talking together now.

There is no expense or effort being spared in trying to work out what we can do right now.

Because two days ago I was told that wasn’t happening without being given an opportunity to sit down and negotiate ... and clearly that’s not going to happen.

I think if we sit back and wait for that we’re just playing into their hands.

CORCORAN: Yeah, none of that surprises me.

But ... the thing that ... what I see at this point is that our ways can’t diverge. And going off, you doing your own thing, you getting your own lawyers ... that might have to happen. But if we diverge away from the umbrella of the club at this point in time, the whole thing could fall apart.

Because everyone goes, ‘I’ll try and justify what I have to do, you’ll have to try and justify what you have to do, so will you’, and then it becomes a mess.

Former Essendon football head Danny Corcoran was concerned about what would happen if everyone diverged away from the umbrella of the club. Picture: Tim Carrafa

LITTLE: Danny, I agree, but I’ve said at some point in time we need to ask ourselves the question, ‘can we win this fight?’.

And if the answer is ‘no we can’t’, then we need to determine individually and collectively what that means for us.

At this point in time I’m not saying that’s where we are at all. But we can’t ...

I mean, Hirdy’s determination to fight this is admirable in many ways, but ... I just think at some point in time if there’s a deal to be cut to get all of this behind us and get on with our lives, as much as we hate it and we detest it and we believe we’ve been wronged and everything else, you as individuals and the club as a whole need to decide if that’s what they want to do.

What is in the best interest of the footy club and what is in the best interest of you individually?

And I’m happy to speak to you individually about that. But I agree with you, Danny, at this point in time I’m not suggesting everyone goes and does that, but at some point in time the club needs to make a decision about how hard we fight this.

Because with that stand-down provision, that’s the gun at our head, and I don’t know how you fight that.

THOMPSON: But it’s based on what? Based on this ASADA report?

CORCORAN: The evidence gained in the ASADA report, yes ...

THOMPSON: ASADA report ...Which is probably not ... if we took that to court, would that stand up?

LITTLE: We doubt it. We doubt it.

THOMPSON: We, we doubt that. So you would actually allow us to be hung out and dried rather than challenge a report?

Danny Corcoran and Mark Thompson at Essendon training in August, 2013. Picture: Colleen Petch

LITTLE: No, that’s not what I’m saying, Bomber.

We believe that it is unlikely from a layman’s point of view, having read that report, that there’s anything in that will sink us. But there’s a lot that’s been blacked out and we don’t know why ... retracted (redacted), and we don’t know why.

THOMPSON: Retracted (Redacted)?

LITTLE: Have you seen the report?

THOMPSON: No.

CORCORAN: No.

LITTLE: Well there’d be 10% of it, 5% of it, is all blacked out ... y’know ... and they’ve said to me that they’re going to supply that blacked-out part to us in the next few days.

Well, is that the smoking gun? Is that the thing that they haven’t told us?

Because based on reading the report I don’t think that, legally, we could be charged with anything. So if there’s not something else then how do we sort of rationalise with what they’re doing? I don’t know how you rationalise.

HIRD: Can I go back a step? They talked about, during the week, that the players would get cleared.

They’re now going back on that, obviously?

LITTLE: He’s now saying to me, ‘oh, I was referring to 9604’, and I said, ‘that is f--king crap’. I said, ‘we parked 9604, we all agreed that that was going nowhere’, and then we spoke about getting the players cleared, ‘unconditionally’ was the word I used.

I rang him last night and I said, ‘you know, you’ve really upset me here because you’ve gone back on your word, Gil’.

He said, ‘no no, I haven’t, I haven’t’.

I said, ‘you have. You told me one thing and now you’re doing something else. I’ve told you how important this as a first step is to get the players cleared’. And he said, ‘what do you want from me?’.

And I said – no, he then said to me: ‘There is a 99% chance that the players won’t be charged’. And I said, ‘well, I’d like to believe you but are you happy for me to use that language in front of the players?’. And he said, ‘oh no, you can’t do that’. And I said, ‘well, f--k, you’re telling me one thing and over here we can’t say anything to the players’.

And he said, ‘let me work on it, I will try and give you some language that will give you the comfort that the players so desperately need’.

But legally, what he’s saying is that ASADA or WADA or anyone else won’t sign off on an enduring release for the players because if something turns up next month, next year, they don’t want to have a situation where they can’t do anything because they’ve given this full release.

And I said, ‘so you expect these guys to be playing footy for the next couple years with this hanging over their head?’.

And he said, ‘well’ ... he said, ‘that’s what ASADA are saying to us’. So I don’t know, Hirdy, it’s just round and round in circles.

HIRD: I’m with the club, Paul, but for six months they’ve kept saying to David (Evans) first of all, and now to you, this sort of ‘we’ll all get’ language ... ‘we’ll get this, we’ll get that’.

I don’t see how this club can survive with players ... things being held over their head for the next 18 months ... and things being held over our heads for the next six months.

And if they’re not going to come out and say, ‘the players are totally cleared on the evidence in front of us’, and they’re not just going to charge us and get on with it – I’d rather they just charge me straight away and get on with it, I really would.

Because ... let’s just get on with fighting this thing, because at the moment it’s this big fog over our head and we can’t fight.

James Hird says the whole saga had laid a “big fog” over the club. Picture: Nicole Garmston

LITTLE: I understand that.

THOMPSON: This is the first tool of negotiation for them, not the other night, Paul. This is it, this is like the biggest stick they can bang.

So they’re going to get us scared and hope that we compromise. We shouldn’t compromise. That’s what they’re trying to do.

LITTLE: I know, I think this is a ... Justin (Rodski) referred to it as an ambit claim, I think this is trying to unsettle us.

But we shouldn’t take it for granted either. We shouldn’t assume they’re not going to walk in here this afternoon ... because everybody else knows more about this bloody process than we do, y’know. Whether it’s f--king Mark Ricciuto or anyone else.

I mean, everyone else seems to be in the knowledge of what’s happening.

I agree with that, and we will fight it, and I promise you that. But right at the moment, we need to know the best way to fight it and we need to understand what our legal rights are because as I said to Ray this morning, we have no f--kin’ leverage, we have nothing. If we have something, you tell me. We have nothing. All we have ...

HIRD: The law of Australia.

THOMPSON: Yeah. The law, we’ve got ASADA, the ASADA Act.

Mark “Bomber” Thompson said the AFL was trying to scare Essendon. Picture: Wayne Ludbey

LITTLE: Hirdy, mate, you can’t be idealistic with this.

HIRD: I know what you’re saying ...

LITTLE: This is ... the law of Australia is sort of ... and I agree, I mean, we’re being termed guilty before you know - and we’ve got to prove our innocence, which is completely around the wrong way.

THOMPSON: Is (Dr Andrew) Garnham right?

LITTLE: Sorry?

THOMPSON: Is Garnham right about AOD?

LITTLE: AOD is out.

THOMPSON: Gone?

LITTLE: Gone.

THOMPSON: Promised? Off the table? Done?

LITTLE: Gil McLachlan told me it was off the table. Have I got it in writing? No.

THOMPSON: No, well it’s not off the table then, is it?

….

HIRD: I think that – and I’m just strategising here – we’ve played this game with them for six months, we’ve done everything they’ve wanted to do and I’m just going to go to court.

Don’t ... put a stake in the ground publicly and say, ‘this is what we believe happened and we’re going to stick to our guns on it’.

Come tell our story, tell them what we think happened. Tell them what we think didn’t happen.

Danny Corcoran.

THOMPSON: Go out now. Are we allowed to go out and tell the media that?

LITTLE: I think ... I want you to wait until this afternoon ... but I was ...

THOMPSON: Stop reacting ...

LITTLE: But I always thought that our silence ... you know, I think the gloves are off, it’s got to be done in a responsible way but the gloves are off, I think for sure. And if it’s agreed from a club point of view that you go out, or you go out, or everyone goes out, I’m now happy with that. Because I think this letter is ... has changed the game now.

It’s crystal clear to me this will be fought out now in a court of law ... and public opinion is important but that’s not going to change the AFL’s ... the only thing that is going to change their mind about what they want to do now is our resolute position, in other words, you know, we stay strong, and if legally they’re on shaky grounds…

Nothing else. Nothing you say, nothing you say, or you say, is going to change their mind. Or me, probably.

HIRD: But Paul, the first tool is ...

Then-Bombers assistant coach Mark Thompson with coach James Hird. Picture: Michael Dodge/Getty Images

THOMPSON: It will. It does.

HIRD: But Paul, the first tool is the evidence that they’ve got – not the evidence – the report that they’ve got that they’re making the decision off.

LITTLE: Yes. Right ...

HIRD: Every bit of advice we’ve been given by everyone we know is that ... that it is not a legal document, it cannot be used, it is in breach of the ASADA Act, da da da ...

LITTLE: And it’s questionable whether ASADA should have even handed it over to the AFL.

HIRD: So isn’t that the first lever?

LITTLE: It is, and that’s what we’re going to find out right now.

THOMPSON: Let’s crack ‘em. Let’s crack the f--kers.

HIRD: And we said, we all said, we don’t want to go out and injunct it or do whatever or stop it being published ...

LITTLE: I don’t care if we do that now.

HIRD: ... Because of PR reasons right now.

LITTLE: … The football world are against us now, we know that.

Look at how they treated f--king Jobe (Watson) at the weekend now that’s just disgraceful. And the Essendon world have never been stronger than where they are. It’s sort of us against the world.

THOMPSON: As a club we should come out and just keep saying we’ve done nothing wrong.

Paul Little. Picture: Wayne Ludbey

Then-Essendon assistant coach Mark thompson, pictured with Jobe Watson, said the club should come out and just keep saying it had done nothing wrong.

HIRD: And if they try and stand me down, Paul ... they say, ‘we’re going to give a thing around stand-downs’, we’re ready to ... we’re ready to go to the Supreme Court. Right ... if they try and stand the club down I’m sure the club ... I don’t think they can do that, can they?

LITTLE: Well, they’ve got this clause that’s this stand-down provision and I don’t know enough about it to know whether they’re acting within their powers or not.

THOMPSON: Well, let them do that too. F--kin’ hell. They will never do that.

HIRD: But if they did that ...

THOMPSON: Nah, not for all the money in the world. Especially if they haven’t got anything.

HIRD: If they went to court then they’re f--ked ...

THOMPSON: Yeah ...

HIRD: Because their whole rules ...

THOMPSON: Bluffers.

HIRD: ... Everything the AFL stands on, will be challenged.

LITTLE: Yep. Everything.

THOMPSON: You know what we have to do, mate, we have to find out what actually happened. Don’t f--king believe what’s in the report.

LITTLE: You know what, Bomber, there isn’t now time to do that. This is now going to be played out legally ...

LITTLE: You know, to give someone an interim report where 20% of it is blacked out and you can’t even read it is a f--king joke and then make a decision based on that.

And Gil McLachlan says, ‘oh by the way, the redacted parts we’ll give them to you in a day or two’.

Oh f--k, I haven’t seen them, they haven’t come.

You know, so, mate, that could all ... that story can be told, and the fact that Demetriou has ... has put himself up as being not able to talk to us because he’s conflicted.

Well, f--kin’, what’s happened to his confliction for the last six months? I mean, that can all go out there, Hirdy ...

HIRD: Yeah, good.

…

LITTLE: And we can make them look as stupid as we can, but that will not, in itself, turn this thing around for us ...

HIRD: Well, what do you think will turn this around?

LITTLE: The courts and our legal rights, and your (legal) team speaking to our team and f--ckin’ making this happen collectively.

We need a council of war now because if the AFL get the initiative here and start throwing these bloody charges around, it just may be that we can’t stop anything.

So we’ve got to get out there first.

HIRD: We’ve got to get to them before they throw the charges in our face.

LITTLE: We have to ...

HIRD: Because once the charges get at us, then we’ve got to go to the Supreme Court to stop us being stood down.

And no one wants to go to the Supreme Court unless they absolutely have to, is that right?

LITTLE: So ...

CORCORAN: What’s Jack say?

LITTLE: Well, Tony Hargreaves said we should be prepared to go there if we have to go there.

But at this point in time that’s jumping ahead, mate.

I just need to understand what the options are right now and he’s going to fully brief us on what the lawyers from the other side have been telling him and we get in there.

But I think it’s really important that this afternoon we take whatever initiative is needed to push back really hard on the AFL. We can’t wait beyond this afternoon.

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Originally published as Secret Dons tape: Read the explosive meeting transcript